Barbara Wardell and Ernesto Cullari run an agency that focuses on geofencing. This embraces a growth hacker mindset that strategically focuses on identifying and amplifying their clients’ strengths while pinpointing weaknesses in the competition, utilizing GPS location data. This approach results in a significant and measurable impact on foot traffic and online engagement, making their efforts truly game changing and successful. 

Questions

· Now, we always like to ask our guests in their own words, if you could share a little bit about your journeys, how you got from where you were to where you are today.

· Can you share with our listeners in the most simplest layman terms, what exactly is geofencing?

· Organizations heavily invest in marketing, but then when the person comes to the organization to do business, case in point, let's say you visited Starbucks, and you had to wait for 20 minutes just to get a cup of coffee. You're extremely frustrated, because it's just a small item, you should be in and out in the shortest possible time. How do you tackle that with your clients? Is that something that you deal with as well?

· Do you find that the behavior based on the geographic location or even the culture of the country, impacts how geofencing works?

· Now we'd also like to hear from both of you, what's the one online resource, tool, website or application that you absolutely cannot live without in your business?

· Can you also share with me maybe one or two books that you've read? It could be a book that you read recently, or even one that you read a very long time ago, but it has had a great impact on you, whether personally or professionally.

· Now, can you also share with our listeners, what's the one thing that's going on in your lives right now that you are really excited about, either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

· Where can listeners find you online?

· Now, we always like to wrap our episodes up by asking our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off track, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Barbara and Ernesto’s Journey

Me: Now, we always like to ask our guests in their own words, if you could share a little bit about your journeys, how you got from where you were to where you are today?

Barbara Wardell: Barbara shared that she and Ernesto met during Covid at a Halloween party, believe it or not, before they started their company together, they became friends. And her journey is she’s a mom of two, and she was in the medical industry, specialty medicines for a long time, and then Covid hit, and then she and Ernesto met at a Halloween party, became friends, and then they started Cullari & Wardell, a geofencing ad agency, and a little over two years, they've been killing it, so growing small businesses. So, they're really lucky to do that. 

Ernesto Cullari: Ernesto stated that as Barbara said, they met during Covid, they both have a medical background. For years, he was a Surgical OR Med Rep, so he would be working in the operating room with physicians utilizing novel technology to do abdominal body wall repair, post breast reconstruction after cancer and things like that. During the day, he moonlit as a professional songwriter, so he had songs on Disney radio, country radio, that he wrote for other artists.

And along that journey, he became a songwriter. So, the mystery during his creative time was always wondering how to sort of growth hack, how to break an artist out into the mainstream. And they had a lot of success doing that. Paulie Litt from the show Hope & Faith, ended up having a number one song on Disney radio, which they wrote for him, and then had a top 100 song, and then top 15 country music song that he wrote for an artist named Bailey Grey. 

And so, it does lead them up to Covid, because when Covid struck, part of their content, so he got more into advertising and marketing, and a lot of their clients just dropped off. And the problem that needed to be solved was how do you rebuild foot traffic, particularly in a market where the government won't let you open, when they do let you open, people are going to be slow to come back to retail.

So, what do we do?

So, putting that growth hacker hat back on to when he was a songwriter, he looked into geofencing, and that was about 4 years ago, and then 2 years into his journey of mastering, doing his 10,000 hours of studying geofencing technology, he and Barbara met, and it became a passion of theirs, and throughout their conversation, to help small businesses, to help them bring people back in. 

People like the retail experience, people like the in-person experience, and geofencing is a powerful tool that uses satellite technology to draw virtual fences around locations of interest. It could be your competitors, and they use that to capture their devices to send ads to their devices when they come into one of their locations after seeing one of your ads, the satellite pings them and alerts them that a new GPS verified visit has taken place. And he and Barbara do about 5000 satellite verified visits in the US, Canada and Australia every month. 

What is Geofencing?

Me: Now, for those of our listeners that are tapping into this episode when it's broadcasted and they're getting a chance to listen into this awesome content, can you share with them in the most simplest layman terms, what exactly is geofencing?

Ernesto Cullari: stated that in the simplest terms, it is a form of advertising that uses your phone and when you walk into a location that they've identified with a satellite, he’s drinking a cup of coffee at a coffee shop that he bought it at. And then in his surrounding areas, there's about 7 other coffee shops. Well, if he wants to show why he’s better, he would use geofencing to draw a virtual fence around his competition. Once someone walks into a competing coffee shop with their mobile device, he can then capture their device and then send ads to their device. And the wonderful part is, is when after seeing his ad, come back to his coffee shop, he could say, “Wow, because of my ads, because I used geofencing to target their devices in my competition stores, I've therefore just measured 50 visits this month.” 

So, it's critical because none of us are made of money, and advertising dollars for the small business is scarce, so we want to use our money wisely. And big companies like Chipotle, Chipotle, by the way, the CEO of Chipotle just got hired at Starbucks.

Me: I saw that yesterday.

Chipotle during Covid, utilized, he thinks it was one of their vice presidents came up with this idea, “Hey, let's use geofencing. I heard it works.” Well, during Covid, Chipotle was able to triple their curb side pickup from using geofencing. They saw where other people were picking up food, and then they decided to target those locations and let them know that, “Hey, Chipotle has curb side pickup.”

So, Chipotle did so well that Starbucks needs to learn from them. As you know, a lot of Starbucks locations have been closing throughout the country, and they picked off talent from Chipotle, and he has no doubt that that talented team is going to be helping Starbucks turn around, but geofencing is part of that story.

Me: So, now our listeners have a good idea of what geofencing is and also what your organization does.

How Does Using GeoFencing as a Marketing/Advertising Tool Affect CX?

Me: Now let's tie all of that back into the customer experience, right? Because we're all about navigating the customer's experience. So, you have marketed and advertised to the organizations to say, hey, you can come to this organization based on the geofencing marketing initiatives that you've put in place. Now, can you share with me how it is that the customer experience is addressed in this for example, like with your clients, because I find, for example, people spend a lot of money on marketing and advertising, not sure what the cost point is for geofencing compared to traditional media like the radio or newspaper, if it's significantly cheaper. But I find that a lot of times, organizations heavily invest in marketing, but then when the person comes to the organization to do business, case in point, let's say you visited Starbucks, and you had to wait for 20 minutes just to get a cup of coffee. You're extremely frustrated, because it's just a small item, you should be in and out in the shortest possible time. How do you tackle that with your clients? Is that something that you deal with as well? 

Barbara Wardell: shared that for their end, it's the advertising end, they don't deal with the customers per se. The places that people go with their smartphones is indicative highly of the products that they buy. So, when they go into a geofence, what they see is they're open on an app, because they're on apps or on the wide-open web, they’re not on Facebook, Instagram, Google. So, when they actually go into that geofence and they're on an app, they will see an ad for one of their customers, and from that, if they toggle it or click it, they will see a map how to get there. Once they go into that store, whether it's that day or 90 days later, the satellite will ping them. So, that part is their end. What they go into the store is on the customer itself of how they treat their customer. And Ernesto has some insight on that as well. 

Ernesto Cullari: shared that when they do a consultation with a client, one of the first things they ask, they're one of the largest advertisers for laundromats in the world, so small business owners have discovered that owning a laundromat is a very good business, you're serving your community, you're providing a great service, but it's very important to set up realistic expectations. So, he and Barbara, when they consult a company, they want to find out even, 

“What kind of doors you have?”

“Do you have doors that are particularly when moms and dads are coming in with their kids, are the doors automatic? Are they wide doors?”

“Are you operating new machines?” 

Because they want to set up realistic expectations for the end consumer. So, when they work with one of their clients, they do ask them how their operations run. They've been very fortunate to attract top operators in communities across the US, but when it comes to restaurants and spirits companies and hotels and HVAC and doctors and things like that, service providers, they do want to make sure that the product that they say they're offering is the end user experience that the customer has. But as Barbara said, it's not their responsibility to make sure they do operations well, but they advise them, “Hey, get your operations down, and let's make sure the promise that we give is matched with the in-store experience.”

Barbara Wardell: shared that that’s something they think that is very important. So, that's why they do a lot of research before they take on a client. They ask them a lot of questions to make sure that they're doing what they're promising in their ads, because you don't want that customer to come in and say, “Okay, this is not what the promise was, right?” Then they won't come back. 

Ernesto Cullari: shared that they're concerned about their numbers; in order to do well for you, they need to be telling the truth. There needs to be truth in advertising, and they don't want their numbers as a company to be impacted because they're committed to delivering as much as 5000 visits a month, and if their clients are not on their end, providing the proper customer experience, it does impact him and Barbara. So, they're very competitive, they want to make sure they uphold the things that they say they're going to do, and they tend to advise their clients 100% of the time to do the same to make sure they're matching the experience with their ad promise.

The Impact of Geofencing

Me: So, in the feedback that you just provided, it got me thinking to the fact that, do you find geofencing it's most effective or impactful based on your geographical location. So, is it that you primarily operate in the United States, in North America? And do you find that geofencing would be different based on, let's say, a customer who is in Nigeria, in Africa, or a customer who is in Kingston, Jamaica, in the Caribbean? Do you find that the behaviour based on the geographic location or even the culture of the country, impacts how geofencing works? Is that data that you're able to provide as well to the clients?

Barbara Wardell: Yes. So, they're right now in Australia, Canada and the United States, and there is a culture difference when you advertise in a different country, they found that a lot has to do, they do a lot of studies before they break into another country, to make sure that they understand the behaviours and kind of they do a listening device that kind of listens to the area to see, because they track mobile foot traffic, right? So, that's one of the things that they do to work on their geofencing, so they already know when they go into that area, what the culture is like, and also talking to the customer as well to understand the area. And also, they do a listening device or a foot traffic study to understand the area that they're targeting. 

Ernesto Cullari: Agreed, Barbara said it perfectly. They do set up listening campaigns, and it's basically a beacon to measure, he'll give you an example, Australia, for listeners that haven't been there, he and Barbara have not been there, but when they look at it via satellite, you have these communities that are densely populated, and then you have hundreds of 1000s of acres of wide open space. So, they really need to do due diligence and measure the amount of devices that are available in an area before they market to them. So now, they haven't tested yet whether this works in Africa or South Africa, but right now, they're for sure it works all throughout Asia and it's a matter of so say, Nigeria, for example, they would have to set up a listening campaign, they would have to measure the amount of devices that are available and then determine what kind of devices are they. Are they iPhones, Samsungs and Androids, or are they flip phones and some other mixture of devices and that will impact what kind of the ads they use.

Me: All right. So, that definitely answers my question, and I think it will help to guide the listeners as well in terms of if they're small business owners, or even working in organizations with small business owners that they can definitely identify if this is something that would benefit them and benefit creating more traffic for their organization, generating more customers and hopefully impacting their customer experience.

App, Website or Tool that Barbara and Ernesto Absolutely Can’t Live Without in Their Business

Barbara Wardell: When asked about online resource that they cannot live without in their business, Barbara stated that she thinks it's the foot traffic study only because it gives them a lot of information before they even launch a campaign for any one of their customers. It is something that they can see a half hour before and a half hour after the customers, where they go from that that area, or that specific customer, and also for a year, they can go back for a year to look at that traffic and see where those customers go.

Ernesto Cullari: He thinks for himself, he has his hand in a lot of working on the creatives for clients. And even though there are wonderful platforms out there, like the whole Adobe Suite, which includes Premier, Photoshop, Lightroom and all that, and Adobe Illustrator, and he thinks they're all great. But he likes the prosumer which are applications that anybody off the street could use. So, if you're a small business owner or even a big business owner, and you want an application where you don't need to go to your team or your assistant, you want to be able to do something yourself, Canva is a wonderful platform that he has actually, when he works in Canva after working in something like Adobe, his turnaround time sometimes in Canva is so much quicker because it's made for dummies.

Canva is made for dummies. So, he loves Canva, and also, they manage designers, and those designers, they work in Creatopy, again, so that's a prosumer, anybody off the street could use that website, it makes great looking html5 ads.

And again, as someone who manages creatives, if he doesn't like something, can go into Creatopy, and he could fix it himself. So, he thinks no matter where you are in your journey as a business owner, whether you manage a fortune 100 company and you have to deal with your admin, your marketing men and women, or you own a small business and you have to do it yourself, or you're hiring an agency like them, Canva and Creatopy, in addition to the Adobe Creative Suite, are just wonderful platforms.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Barbara and Ernesto

Ernesto Cullari: When asked about books that have had an impact, Ernesto shared that he read Confessions of an Advertising Man by Ogilvy, which he thinks is one of the greatest books on advertising you can read. But also, it's not just advertising, it's in general, if you're someone who needs to communicate to the masses or to discrete audiences, small audiences, learning the art of communication is important, and he thinks Confessions of an Advertising Man, he have found invaluable. 

In addition to Sun Tzu's Art of War, sometimes you have to crush your competition, and you have to be able to have the stomach for it, and strategy is necessary. And Sun Tzu’s The Art of War he would also say. And then the Bible. 

Barbara Wardell: She has to say one of her favorite is Wabi Sabi Love, it's about being in the present and appreciating everything that’s in your life at that moment, because it could be gone tomorrow, and she’s had that experience, she’s read a ton of marketing books, but that's one that's close to her heart. 

Ernesto Cullari: He shared that Yanique asked earlier about cost effectiveness, and the cost per acquisition and things like that. How does this compare to other forms of advertising? So, he’s sure a lot of listeners out there have for various reasons, could be for charity, could be for advertising, could be for marketing. They've engaged in Facebook, Google advertising to promote an event or product. So, he can tell you, doing the engagement using Facebook and then starting with other forms of advertising since then, and he can tell you that geofencing, pound per pound is the Mike Tyson, is the absolute Mike Tyson of advertising. Everyone else is a lightweight. There is no censorship. 

So, if you run political ads, you will face no censorship of any sort on the geofencing side, unlike Facebook and Google, who will silence you if they don't agree with your viewpoints. And in terms of reach and measurement, dollar for dollar, there's just nothing as effective as geofencing. 

So, on a $500, he doesn't recommend only spending this, but on a $500 budget per month, you can end up with 20 people coming through your door. I do recommend for five-mile radius that you spend at least $1,000 on your market, that way, if you know the cost per customer, meaning how much money your average customer spends, you have the opportunity to 10 to 30x your return on investment depending on what the value of a new customer is for you. 

In some of their verticals that they work with, the value of a new customer is $40,000 so on the $1,000 ad spend, if you gain one new client a month, that's a quite impressive return on investment. For other clients they have in the laundry industry, some of their clients are worth 1200 to 2500 a year. So, if they send the 30, 40, 50 customers a month, then that again, is quite a handsome return on investment, agreed.

What Barbara and Ernesto is Really Excited About Now!

Barbara Wardell: When asked about something that they are really excited about, Barbara shared that they just launched which they're really excited about, their dashboard for their clients so that they can go in and see the reporting instead of them emailing them their reports, so now that they can go into the system and actually on their time and actually look at and see their results of their campaign. 

Ernesto Cullari: He shared that he’s excited about he and Barbara just got finished running a fundraiser from his mother's orphanage in the Philippines. She operates what's called Street Kids Philippine Missions, and she's been there for 15 years with her husband, Matt, and they have rescued kids that were in danger of being sex trafficked, that were eating out of garbage cans, that were basically destitute. And it's their 15th year, they just successfully raised $20,000 and that was simply an online campaign where they used their podcasting studio to talk about what his mom does, and Matt does there. And they're pretty proud of being able to use their resources to help kids that face sex trafficking that would otherwise be destitute. And he would say he’s most happy and proud about that development.

Where can listeners find you online?

Website – www.cullarimedia.com

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Barbara and Ernesto Uses

Ernesto Cullari: When asked about a quote to they tend to revert to, Ernesto shared from The Art of War, “He whose forces are of one mind will be victorious.” 

Barabra Wardell: She shared that mainly, she always tells herself to be in the present moment and not get sidetracked by other things that are going on. But she can't think of a quote right now.

Me: Thank you so much for taking time out of your very busy schedules and hopping on our podcast and sharing all of these great insights as it relates to geofencing and the impact that it can have on 10x’ing your business, getting new clients, the advantage that it has over traditional media, advertising and just the opportunity for you to understand your customer base a little bit more, get an idea of where they're coming from and why they're coming to you, so you can continue to build on that and even exceed their expectations. So, I think it was a great conversation, and I just wanted to extend my deepest gratitude to you both.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

•    Confessions of an Advertising Man by Dave Ogilvy

•    The Art of War by Sun Tzu

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Alan Versteeg, an engineer turned sales management expert, initially approached the sales world with skepticism, but soon turned it into a thriving career by applying the engineering principles of cause and effect to sales and sales management. This success led him to co-founding Growth Matters, where Alan and his team have developed over 2,000 sales managers across 45+ countries and diverse industries. 

Known for his candid and light-hearted approach, Alan's passion for the sales profession shines through in his insightful talks, leaving audiences engaged with his wisdom, expertise, and memorable one liners. 

Questions

· Now, could you start by sharing with our listeners a little bit about your journey, how it is that you got from where you were to where you are today.

· Can you share with us maybe two overarching themes that you try to help sales professionals master in terms of their mindset, to get them to where you need them to be in order to master their sales?

· What are some barriers that you believe a lot of salespeople face, why it is you believe they're not successful?

· Now, Alan, could you also share with our listeners, what's the one online resource, tool, website or application that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

· Can you also share with our listeners maybe two books that you've read? It could be a book that you read recently, or even one that you read a very long time ago, but it still has had a great impact on you.

· Could you also share with us what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you are really excited about, either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

· Where can listeners find you online?

· Just want to ask you as well, Alan, in your experience, in the journey of your lifetime, if you have a quote or saying that during times of adversity or challenge, if for any reason, you got derailed. Do you have a quote or a saying that once repeated or just remembered it helps to get you back on track?

Highlights

Alan’s Journey

Me: Now, could you start by sharing with our listeners a little bit about your journey, how it is that you got from where you were to where you are today.

Alan shared that he started as an electronic engineer, it wasn't his fault, he grew up watching Airwolf Night Rider and MacGyver, so he thought that's what he'd be doing. Unfortunately, he lost his dad when he was quite young, he was about 12 years old, but he was an engineer, so he thought that'd be a good thing to do. But he was doing it for about 3 years after graduating, and he read a book called You're Born an Original, Don't Die a Copy by John Mason, and he said, “If you passionately hate what you're doing for more than 2 weeks, you need to stop,” and he'd been doing it for two years.

And a friend of his suggested he goes into sales, which he then tried and please if your listeners don't drop off now, but he got asked to leave his first sales jobs, but it was frustrating. As an engineer, he believed in cause and effect. He believes that there's things you do that get you certain outcomes. He was doing everything they told him to do, but he couldn't find a way to get through, he'd be good at his product, he was passionate to what he was doing, but he wasn't able to succeed. 

And then he worked under a manager, he said to him, “Alan, is sales a job or a profession?” So, he knew the right answer, the right answer was, it's a profession. And he said, “Well, how hard did you study for this profession?” 

And then the penny drops, and from there on out, been a passionate reader, 50 to 60 books a year, generally related to psychology, self-development and sales and over time, realized that the big change in sales is sales management, and that's a short view of his journey to where he was and how he got here.

Mindset Needed for Sales Professionals

Me: Now you deal with a lot of sales professionals, and I can imagine it starts with their mindset. Can you share with us maybe two overarching themes that you try to help sales professionals master in terms of their mindset, to get them to where you need them to be in order to master their sales?

Alan stated that it's a great question, and it speaks to the tone of your podcast. So, the first mindset they have to own is that “Selling won't help, but helping will sell.” That the sale is the reward for an intent to create value. And that's the starting point when we realize that we are service orientated, that we're there to drive value into the client's business or life, that there's something specifically we're trying to do, that were truthfully customer centric it's not just a word, and we realize that selling won't help, but helping will sell. 

You'll find that salespeople do really well. There's a wonderful book called Selling With Noble Purpose: How to Drive Revenue and Do Work That Makes You Proud by Lisa Earle McLeod, and it shows the research behind the top performing sales professionals globally sell with that noble purpose, with an idea to serve. So, it's definitely one of them. 

The second one is probably an extension, he said to sales professionals, “If you believe in the product you sell and you believe it can add value to the person you're serving, then it would be borderline negligent to avoid offering them that value.” 

Many salespeople, specifically today are fearful of cold calling or proactive sales calling or reaching out or picking up a phone or speaking to someone, and they take on a very much non-human sales approach, as opposed to going, “I believe, with certainty and conviction that what I have to offer will make their lives or their business easier, and I'm here to help, and helping will sell. So, I'm going to depart from that point.” 

And what you find is doing that, apart from that point, the skills, the body language, all the risks that start to develop quite naturally, but often we avoid that, we try to train the skill, but we avoid the mindset.

Barriers To Overcome as Salespeople

Me: So, once you tackle their mindset, now you have to ensure that what they're selling, as you mentioned before, is actually helping the customer and adding value to the customer's life. What are some barriers that you believe a lot of salespeople face, why it is you believe they're not successful?

Alan shared that he thinks the big barrier specifically in professional selling is conviction of the value proposition, and before that is clarity. And he'll give a couple of examples.  

When he speaks to business leaders, they often say to him, “You know what Alan, the challenge with our sales teams are they just don't understand our value proposition.” 

And he says, okay, great. What is your value proposition? And they struggle to articulate it. Now, if you think about this, why is it that entrepreneurs can sell quite effectively without ever having been trained in that skill, and the reality is they have clarity and conviction of their value proposition. He thinks with many sales professionals, we're teaching them the product, we're not teaching them the impact it has on the customer's life. 

Once we buy into the impact, once we have the conviction, selling is a natural part of how we are as humans and Dan Pink wrote that book To Sell Is Human: The Surprising Truth About Moving Others. 

And his (Alan) example is we have a brand over there, it's called Woolworths, it's a high-quality brand, high quality food brand. And if you said to anyone, “But why shopping in Woolworths? They're so expensive.” They dive into a defense, without being paid by this company, they will sell very hard the value of doing that. 

The same could be said for someone who's an Apple phone fan. And he can continue, once we have conviction of something, the ability and need to persuade is actually quite natural. So, he thinks what's missing from an individual's perspective is that conviction of the mindset. 

From a corporate, it's the fact that we speak about customer centricity, but none of our measurement metrics or meetings actually align to that.

Me: Now, I found that in a lot of organizations, they're heavily sales driven, right? I find it as a customer service trainer when companies hire me to come in and train their team, especially the leadership teams in customer service, or even customer experience design or customer journey mapping, there's a lot of emphasis that I hear them talking that they have these exorbitant sales targets to meet on a month to month basis, and with these targets that they have to meet, they don't have as much time to give to customer centricity or to give to the experience, because it's all about meeting the target. How do you strike that balance as a salesperson? What would be your recommendation? 

Alan shared that there'd be two components. The first would be at an organizational lens, speaking to what you're saying. He thinks organizations have forgotten that when you take care of the customers, the number takes care of itself. So, we are so focused on the month, on the quarter, on the year, we're not focused on the value, and that's a shift that needs to happen. 

But practically, the way that shift happens is in the account planning process, when we start treating our customers and accounts and saying, what is the value we're delivering. Many companies go, what more can we sell them? What's the white space we can sell into? What does that look like? And that's the big organizational. 

From a salesperson’s perspective, the only thing you can do is you need to figure out how to allocate your effort. And the way he says that is you have to beat everyone equally but handle them differently. You have to segment your customers, otherwise you can't take care of the ones that need to be taken care of, and your competitor is going to snatch them up. And in any sales business, he’s ever worked with, if you lose, and it's generally about 10%, if you lose about 10% of your customers, you lose about 90% of your revenue. 

But organizations are just focused what's the next sale, what's the next sale, what's the next sale? And what happens is, we're putting two barrels on the truck, and three barrels are falling off the truck because we're not focused on the customer service. 

And we almost see it as something separate, and it's not. The way he articulates this is there's a thing called the value gap, it's the gap between what customers expect and what they experience. And it is everybody's job in the organization to close that gap.  

It's not, “Hey, sales go set the expectation. Hey, service go and deliver against that expectation.” It's an organizational mindset that we exist to close the gap between the customers expect and what they experience. 

And he thinks their leadership needs to start realizing that taking care of customers, the numbers take care of themselves, and that talking to a spreadsheet or talking to a CRM system or talking to data doesn't change people's behaviour. 

So, leadership needs to take a different perspective on this and going, what is it we do now that lays the soil in the seeds for the numbers we need?

App, Website or Tool that Alan Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about online resource that he can’t live without in his business, Alan shared that right now ChatGPT. He thinks that we are negating its value in sales if we're using it incorrectly. So, he’ll give you a context. 

As salespeople, we need to be creative and optimistic, and we're not fans of admin. So, the good news for sales professionals is a lot of our admin is going to be replaced by technology, but that's going to leave a lot of sales professionals wanting because what do you do with the time that you used to spend putting your data. But he really leverages the tool to shorten his learning curve, understanding a customer, understanding what the challenges are, understanding key things. It's a tool to summarize, it doesn't replace him as it shouldn't, it enhances him. 

And he was listening to one of Yanique’s earlier podcasts, you talk about the human-to-human connection, and there's this thing now where we talk about human-to-human selling. And he’s like, well, if you think human to human selling is new, then you haven't been around for millennia, because that's what it is. It's a human-to-human task enhanced by technology. But right now, if he talks about probably 60% to 70% of his time is given back to him because he knows to leverage ChatGPT.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Alan

When asked about books that have had an impact, Alan shared that that's a tough question with all the books he read, but he’s going to give one that he always recommends. The first one is called The Slight Edge: Turning Simple Disciplines into Massive Success and Happiness by Jeff Olson, and the premise of the book is that simple disciplines practiced consistently over time, lead to a life of greatness, and simple errors in judgment made consistently over time, lead to a life of blame. There's no Hollywood moment, there's not one big movement, they're just simple disciplines. Look at any leader, any sports hero, any person who succeeds in their profession, they practice the disciplines. So, there's definitely one that guides his life. 

And then the other one is a book called The ONE Thing: The Surprisingly Simple Truth About Extraordinary Results by Gary Keller, and it's really about forgetting this construct of work life balance and finding out what's the one thing I can do such that by doing everything else is easier or unnecessary. And it talks about this work life counterbalance, and how you just keep the things that matter, you don't make them extreme fluctuations and the things that don't matter can be extreme. You can be heavily buried in a work project for three months, but during that time, don't forget your health, your family time, the things that matter. Just tone it down a bit, not all the way down. Those are two books, he'd say, personally, really drove him. 

As a business professional, recently read that 10x Is Easier Than 2x: How World-Class Entrepreneurs Achieve More by Doing Less by Dan Sullivan, wonderful resource for anyone that's listening, that is an entrepreneur or business owner, 10x Is Easier Than 2x.

What Alan is Really Excited About Now!

Me: Now, Alan, could you also share with us what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you are really excited about, either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

When asked about something that he’s excited about, Alan shared that he’s recently moved to a smaller coastal towns that's been really good for him personally, but the big thing happening for him business wise, is there's a very large global brand that they've managed to secure that's 10x’ing our business, which is a plan they had based on that book that he’s read, and starting to see how that effort, energy and focus is paying off, is really rewarding. When you read a lot of books, you can get sometimes caught up in the story and not in the action. 

And what's really great to see, in a proud moment for their business, is now really starting to take on some recognized global brands who are looking at effectively three guys from South Africa and saying, “We want to partner with you to do this.” So, it's a proud moment that's come, your overnight success is the longest night of your life. 

But really what it's been powerful is seeing the practices that they put in place now starting to bear fruit. And when you say, take care of the customers, the number takes care itself, it's actually quite prolific, how? 

And you know this, he’s preaching to the converted, but when you understand that the only thing that matters is how customers experience you, then everything else becomes a lot easier, because their ability to grow is because they just have a track record where they phone a customer, and they love what they've done with them. And that doesn't mean it's easy to scale, it's still hard to scale. But he thinks that'd be the big thing right now, is seeing how by applying certain principles, you can stretch your own mindset, stretch your own goals, stretch your own vision for your business, and really start to play where you always believed you can.

Where can listeners find Alan online?

LinkedIn – Alan Versteeg

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Alan Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Alan shared that he has quite a few, but one of his favourites, because of its depth is, “How you do anything, is how you do everything.” And the reason that's so important is it's easy to be in a good mood when times are good, it's easy to be of a good character when times are good, it's easy to be a pleasant person when times are good, but when things are challenging, that's where your character gets tested.  

And how you do anything, is how you do everything. And he says to leaders all the time, Richard Branson said it so well, “The best way to take care of your customers is to take care of your employees.” Because the minute you take care of the employees, the customers feel that. And it's because how you do anything, is how you do everything. 

You can't be polite to your customers but rude to the person waiting at you at a restaurant or trying to help you at the airport. Airports are so fascinating because everyone complains to people who are really just trying to get you somewhere safely and within strict guidelines that people, they don't treat people well. 

And he believes that how you do anything, is how you do everything. And in challenging times, that tests you, can I remain of good spirit?

Can I remain a good demeanor?

Can I remain patient as a person when things are difficult?

Can I maintain my faith? 

Because it's easy to maintain my faith when things are great, it's difficult when you're in the lion's den, and that's for him, a quote that just guides him and says, just remember, they still shape your character, this is a test of your character and a bad day for the ego, is a beautiful day for the soul. It's time to grow.

Me: Well, thank you, Alan, so much for hopping on this podcast and sharing all of these great insights with us. It was very insightful to understand your perspective as it relates to sales and customer service, and to reinforce a lot of what we do talk about on this podcast, Navigating the Customer Experience as it relates to ensuring that the customer experience is not just managed effectively on the outside, but it needs to start on the inside. And you said it beautifully when you gave Richard Branson's quote that if you take care of your people on the inside, and they'll definitely take care of your customers on the outside. So, I think it was a really great conversation and I just really wanted to extend our deepest gratitude for your participation in our conversation today.

Alan shared an extended thanks to Yanique and the work she’s doing in this space. One of the things that he definitely picks up in everything Yanique shared, the customer experience is not a thing, it's a culture and when we actually realize this, everything becomes easier, because it seems obvious, it does take a lot of work, as you know, it's a profession. But when companies understand it, the only reason we exist is to create value for customers, then the customer experience is the report card. So, thank you so much for the work you're doing in this space and for having him on the show.

Please connect with us on X @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience.

Links

•    You’re Born an Original, Don’t Die a Copy by John Mason

•    Selling With Noble Purpose: How to Drive Revenue and Do Work That Makes You Proud by Lisa Earle McLeod

•    To Sell Is Human: The Surprising Truth About Moving Others by Daniel H. Pink

•    The Slight Edge: Turning Simple Disciplines into Massive Success and Happiness by Jeff Olson

•    The ONE Thing: The Surprisingly Simple Truth About Extraordinary Results by Gary Keller

•    10x Is Better Than 2x: How World-Class Entrepreneurs Achieve More by Doing Less by Dan Sullivan

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners 

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty.

This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately!

This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others.

Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

Neil Leyland is a Chief Contact Center Strategist at InterVision, and he is an exceptional PMP and six Sigma black belt certified senior-level program leader and a proven problem-solver. A highly motivated achiever with a career history in sales and operations management for international multi-unit retail operations. 

Possessing excellent interpersonal, presentation, written and verbal communication skills, which are used to solve problems, consult on technology projects and develop long-term collaborative relationships. 

Questions

· Could you share with our listeners a little bit about your journey, how you got from where you were to where you are today.

· Could you tell our listeners a little bit about InterVision, what they do and what your role at InterVision is?

· When you say holistic approach using AI and machine learning, can you explain to us what that means? Is it that robots are going to replace human beings? Or are you looking more from a support side, just tell us how it is that you actually see it working?

· Could you share with our listeners, what's the one online resource, tool, website or application that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

· Could you also share with our listeners maybe one or two books that you've read that have had a great impact on you, it could be a book that you read a very long time ago, or even one that you've read recently that has impacted you either professionally or personally.

· Can you also share with our listeners what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you are really excited about, either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

· Where can listeners find you online?

· Now, before we wrap our episodes up, Neil, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off track, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Neil’s Journey

Me: Neil, could you share with our listeners a little bit about your journey, how you got from where you were to where you are today.

Neil stated that you can probably tell, he’s not from the US, although he’s based there now. Finishing up from university, he went straight into working for enterprise, Rent a Car, did probably 20 or so years with them. Worked from the main counter at a rental office all the way through to leading an area. Then he moved countries during that time and started working more on the technology side and being far more strategic as opposed to tactical.  

Then settled in St. Louis, got married, had kids, and then moved through several different companies, picking up good and bad practices along the way, and he’s ended up at just coming up to 12 months now with InterVision.

About InterVision

Me: Now, could you tell our listeners a little bit about InterVision, what they do and what your role at InterVision is?

Neil shared InterVision is an AWS premier tier partner. They specialize in transforming contact centers to their flagship product, Connective CX, powered by Amazon Connect. They also integrate AI to deliver seamless omnichannel engagements. They address common pain points for call centers, like reducing call volume and the costs associated, they do this through improve engaging efficiency and also enhance customer satisfaction. They can be found at www.intervision.com. 

His role within InterVision, he would say is a Contact Center Evangelist. So, he works with clients and look at problems that they face, and then help them find what is either the best operational or technological solution to best satisfy customers’ needs or solve problems that the companies have been satisfying those needs, so tying together his history working in retail, as well as time and technology, and sort of blending the two, to give what people consider to be a best in class solution for them.

Understanding the Approach in AI and Machine Learning in the Contact Centre

Me: So, you are in the contact center space, and your strategy is to ensure that you have a holistic approach using AI and machine learning, two very popular words that are being used very frequently in the CX space. When you say holistic approach using AI and machine learning, can you explain to us what that means? Is it that robots are going to replace human beings? Or are you looking more from a support side, just tell us how it is that you actually see it working?

Neil stated that he thinks it's actually good to approach it from a journey perspective, if you will. So, if you think about somebody that has a transaction, whether that be online or in person, and then they need some level of support. So, they come through to a contact center, and at that point, contact centers have really embraced AI and machine learning to help customers come through and get a better level of experience. So, whether that be at the starting point when they answer the phone, you can have chatbots either on the website or on the IVR that are able to answer and interact with customers and provide them with quick hit answers and potentially resolve problems for them quickly and efficiently. Now that's one use of AI. 

People say, well, is that going to replace people? 

He doesn't think it does, because it solves the simple problems AI and ML doesn't have the ability to solve. 

So, when people do get to an agent or somebody on the phone, or whether a chat or send an email and get a reply, the agents are able to spend that little bit more time to solve a problem, so it elevates the customer experience even though it's not necessarily AI based. 

When you think about that side though, you get AI does weave its way in there and provide agents with the ability to serve customers or call us better. So, you get crazy things like, there are AI tools out there now that will listen to the conversation, will understand the context of it, understand the ask and serve up knowledge or information to the agent real time, so they can better solve the problem. 

So, it will literally know this customer sounds like they have a question about x, here's the most common answers to x, is this the right thing to say and serve that up to the agent.

So, the agents might not have any real experience of the problem, but they've got a proven history of other people being able to solve that question, or a very similar question, quickly and efficiently, and they can copy it. And then that really helps agents appear to be more efficient, more friendly, and for everybody that's listening, and everyone's been put on hold. No one likes to be put on hold, or “I don't know the answer to that, let me transfer you”, that can go away, which is really, really profound and gives a perception of quality well and above the norm. 

And then the other side of it that's kind of cool, is you can have sentiment monitoring. So, if somebody's listening to this call, the AI or ML in the background will be monitoring it, and they can flag calls to supervisors or to other people to say, “Hey, Neil's really happy with this call. Neil's unhappy with this call. We might need some help. Somebody may need to join this call because Neil's struggling with it.” 

So, it basically not only gives the ability to empower people and have them answer questions well, but it gives them monitoring so that people can actually get involved and engaged and help customers that have got problems and prevent issues, if that makes sense.

Me: Yes, it absolutely does. I attended a conference, I think it was the first and second of May, hosted by a company called CX Outsourcers Mindshare. They brought together, I believe, close to 80 persons from all over the world, from all different continents, that were in the contact center space. And my role at the event was, I sat on a podcast panel with a podcaster from Brazil and one from South Africa talking about the influence of podcasting on customer experience and the impact that it will have in the contact center space. 

One of the things that I found fascinating at the conference, and this was predominantly I believe in, I know in the Caribbean for sure, and definitely in Africa, and you can let me know what your feedback is based on your exposure and experience that hiring, in terms of recruitment was a big issue that they were facing in the contact centers and trying to integrate AI and more importantly, as it relates to recruitment, ensuring that as they go forward and AI is more integrated into the whole process of solving customers problems, having AI do the more simplistic activities and tasks, and then having the agents do more complex tasks. Is that a trend that you've seen happening? Or is there anything else that you'd like to add to that conversation?

Neil shared that it definitely is. It's causing an upskilling, or an appearance of upskilling of people that answer the phone or answer the chats. Because when he started in the contact center space, companies would train an agent for 4, 6, 8 weeks, maybe even more to make sure that they have the skill set and the knowledge to be able to answer not just 80%.

Neil shared that Yanique is absolutely correct that AI and machine learning is having a profound impact on the agents and upskilling, because the ability for machines to take away the simpler tasks means that agents can do things that are more interesting and rewarding for one. So, that makes the job more fun, that's an important component.  

The other side is, years ago, as companies brought people on board, they'd spend weeks and weeks training them, and nowadays that's just not necessary, because most companies have invested, or are looking to invest in a single pain so all of the information is shared to them, and when that's augmented by machine learning to provide sensible text or answers or knowledge that's appropriate, agents appear to be more knowledgeable with less training, faster and that gives a great different for companies that are embracing it. It's a great differentiate. It really helps the agents feel valued, enjoy the job, and therefore more likely to be retained and that skill level is retained. 

So, generally, companies that companies that retain the skill gets better over time, and it also the other piece is, he thinks it helps companies attract people, because the job is more fun and more rewarding. So, the benefits not only in the people that work there, it's about getting the better talent in the front door as well.

App, Website or Tool that Neil Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about online resources that he can’t live without in his business, Neil shared that for him personally, and this is going to sound a little bit old school, he absolutely loves using YouTube, and he will go visit YouTube looking for how to build a presentation, looking for information, ways to do things, learnings, classes, he finds a great value with day to day, he’s looking at YouTube and watching videos on lots and lots of topics continually, because he thinks it's a quick and easy way to learn how to do something new or refine what he’s doing based on somebody else's best practices, whether that be consultants that have classes on how to do PowerPoint presentations, or even people that do public speaking regularly and share tips and trades on how they do it. So, he uses YouTube a lot, and slowly but surely, he thinks that's starting to be replaced a little bit by TikTok, because he likes 60 second bites as opposed to 20-minute videos.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Neil 

When asked about books that have had an impact, Neil shared that books that he really enjoyed and got a lot out of is a book called Good to Great: Why Some Companies Make the Leap…And Others Don’t by Jim Collins, it's an older book now, but it's been around for a good few years that definitely influenced his working life, because the ideology is all in the title. So, how can you be better, and how can you differentiate yourself or the company you work for, and make a difference, and then elevate to go from being a good company to a great company or a good employee to a great employee. So, that's one of the books that definitely influenced his career. And he really enjoyed the fact that it had case studies in there that you were able to look at, read and understand, and then it gives you that a little bit more of a practical application when there's case studies that you can look at.

What Neil is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that he’s excited about, Neil shared that he’s been with InterVision approximately 12 months, and in that time, they've had a tremendous amount of growth. 

They are working a significant amount with Amazon, on Amazon Connect in the contact center space, and watching how that's changing the contact center space is really, really incredible. And with that, they have releases on a weekly or biweekly basis, and you see new technologies and new items come out, and it's actually an interesting challenge making sure that his team is not only at the cutting edge of technology, but what's new and modern today is, for want of a better description, a month old in a month's time. 

And making sure that his team are kept current and up to date with all of these technology changes, specifically around AI and ML, that's really an interesting challenge, because the solutions of a year ago aren't solutions for today, and he finds that both interesting challenge from a business perspective, but it's also rewarding because you get the opportunity to have people do training classes and learnings to make sure that they're at the top of their skill game to be able to deliver the best in class products that they like to offer.

Where can listeners find Neil online?

LinkedIn – Neil Leyland

Website – www.intervision.com

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Neil Uses

Me: Now, before we wrap our episodes up, Neil, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off track, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track. Do you have one of those? 

When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Neil shared that it's not quite that, but there's a phrase that he often thinks about in challenges when he’s working with his colleagues, or they're looking at a project and how to move forward, and it's directly related to customer service and it's, “The tolerance of poor behaviour is worse than the behaviour itself.”  

Me: That's such a powerful statement.

Neil shared that he loves it because it's applicable everywhere. In your personal life, you can choose not to go to the gym, or you can go to the gym. In work, you can watch people do things and managers do things or accept things and that they shouldn't and as soon as a behaviour becomes ingrained, it's far more challenging to remove it. 

Me: Yeah, agreed. Thank you so much for sharing.

So, we just want to extend our deepest gratitude to you, Neil, for hopping on our podcast today, sharing about InterVision, about your journey, as well as what you're doing at InterVision, the impact of AI and machine learning, the opportunity that workers have in the centers as agents to upskill their competencies and behaviours so that they can better serve customers and solve problems quicker. It was really a rewarding and engaging conversation, and I want to just extend our deepest gratitude to you. So, thank you so much.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

•    Good to Great: Why Some Companies Make the Leap…And Others Don’t by Jim Collins

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners 

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty.

This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately!

This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others.

Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

Dr. Eric Recker is a dentist, husband, father, keynote speaker, Elite Success Coach, author, pilot, mountain climber and recovering triathlete. In his second half of life, he is committed to helping people shorten the distance to becoming their best version and learning to #WINtheNOW. 

Questions

·      We'd love for you to share in your own words a little bit about how you got from where you were to where you are today.

·      Could you share maybe two or three overarching themes that you believe have been the core values that have driven you to get to where you are today, and if other people were to embrace or embody those same core values, you believe they would achieve the same success.

·      What would you say are some of the success tools that have made both businesses thrive in a positive way, if you were to look at them and see if there are any overlapping behaviors or competencies that help to strengthen the customer experience in both areas.

·   Could you also share with us what's the one online resource, tool, website or application that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

·      Now, could you also share with our listeners, Eric, maybe one or two books that have had a great impact on you. It could be a book that you read a very long time ago, or even one that you've read recently, but it has impacted you, both professionally and even personally.

·      Can you also share with us what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you are really excited about, either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

·      Where can listeners find you online?

·      Now, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off course, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Eric’s Journey 

Me: Eric, we always like to give our guests an opportunity to share in their own words a little bit about their own journey. So, your bio basically gave us a very short summary of all the wonderful things that you have and are still doing, but we'd love for you to share in your own words a little bit about how you got from where you were to where you are today.

Eric shared that he really could give a short version of that, and it would take about 4 hours, but he'll try to really crunch it down together and say that he was bullied on the playground when he was growing up. He grew up in a small town in Iowa in the early 80s, and recess kickball was life, and he was told that he couldn't play because he wasn't good enough, and so unfortunately, that you are not good enough became a soundtrack for him, and he told himself on the sideline of that recess kickball field that he was going to be so good at everything he ever did that no one would ever not pick him.

Well, fast forward into his professional career as a dentist, he truly believed that he wasn't good enough, so he overshot on everything, overcompensated on everything, always kept adding more and more and more because he was trying to prove to other people that he was good enough. That led to three significant rounds of burnout, including chest pain, heart palpitations, panic attacks, all of that to the point that he got very close to selling his dental practice and walking away. 

When that all fell through, he needed to step back and decide what he really wanted to do with this life, and he knew that he had a powerful story. He'd been through a lot, and he wanted to be able to help other people on their journey. 

So, what he does now is he has sold half of his dental practice to a partner. He sees patients three days a week, and the other days he speak and coach and write books and do content and all of those kinds of things, trying to help other people on their journey, so that they don't have to go as far down the burnout trail as he went.

Me: That is awesome. What a wonderful story.

Core Values for Success - Themes that Drive Achievement and Fulfillment

Me: So, Eric, you speak a lot about burnout and mindset and just handling the different stresses of life, can you share with our listeners on your own personal journey, when you got to that point, when you realized that you needed to make a change? If you could share maybe two or three overarching themes that you believe have been the core values that have driven you to get to where you are today, and if other people were to embrace or embody those same core values, you believe they would achieve the same success.

Eric shared that first of all, where it all went wrong each time that he went through that terrible season of burnout, he noticed the same equation now that he looks back on it, kind of doing a forensic examination of it was over committed. He had too much on his plate, as a lot of us do, but even more importantly, he wasn't taking care of himself, he just kept going. He just kept adding more and more, and that's where the problem was. 

So, one of the big core values that he has is taking care of himself. So, we have to be a little bit selfish so that we can be selfless. If we don't have anything to give, we won't be able to give anything to our people. We won't be able to have an impact on those that we are around, and we will definitely get burned out. 

Another huge core value for him is relationships. He’s a highly relational person, and it's extremely important to him that he has some good quality relationships in his life, and it's important for all of us. So, he has a mentor that he meets with, he has a coach that he works with, and he has 4 people that he would consider, 2:00 am friends, people that he could call in the middle of the night if his world fell apart. So, relationships and self-care would be two of the big things that he thinks we really need to be careful and make sure we embrace those.

Me: Absolutely love those two themes that you've shared with us.

Success Tools for Thriving Businesses - Overlapping Behaviors and Competencies that Enhance Customer Experience

Me: Now, I love the fact that one of your themes was relationships, and a big part of customer experience, as this podcast is focused on navigating the customer experience is building strong relationships. All organizations aim to have customers for life, and a big part of that is building strong relationships with those customers, whether it be a B2B or a B2C. Since you pretty much managing two businesses, because you mentioned that you coach and you write books and you do speeches and stuff for organizations and people, and then you also have your practice where you're in office three days per week. What would you say are some of the success tools that have made both businesses thrive in a positive way, if you were to look at them and see if there are any overlapping behaviours or competencies that help to strengthen the customer experience in both areas.

Eric shared that one thing that he teaches his team is to be aware of the rest of the story, it's a huge thing for him. People are complicated, so, in his dental practice, people will come in and they'll maybe see them for an hour of their life, and they might be grumpy when they come in, they might be scared, they might be, however they present themselves to them is just a snapshot of how their life is going. They may not be taking very good care of themselves, they may be in a bad place, they may have gotten a diagnosis, they may have a family member that's really struggling, they may have any number of things that's going on. They may be crazy burned out, and they get to see a little snapshot of them. 

So, when somebody comes in, they don't seem like themselves, or if they've just met them, and they're kind of off putting to them at the beginning, just understand that they're seeing a snapshot of a bigger picture of someone's life. And so, he thinks it's always important that they think about that, they don't always get the chance to know the whole person, but especially in someone that you've been in relationship with for a while, if they seem off, then there's something more going on, and it might be worth exploring that.

Me: So, you're lying in the dentist chair, right? And what would you call the person that's serving the client, a dental assistant? And the dental assistant picks up that the patient is agitated, walk us through that. What would you want he or she to do to kind of have the patient relax, maybe build some conversation. Do you just have casual talk? Do you pick a topic, maybe about the weather? Do you think about something that's maybe current affairs, like Donald Trump? 

Eric shared that he definitely stays away from politics. Stay away from politics and hot button news things, that's for sure. People get pretty fired up about that. But exactly that scenario that you had. The great thing about his practice is a lot of the patients that he sees, he’s been seeing for 20 years. And so, when they come in, if something doesn't seem right, then they'll ask them, 

“Hey, is everything going okay today?” 

“Well, I'm just really nervous about this procedure.” 

“Okay, well, tell me more about that.” 

And a lot of times, really all someone needs to do is voice what they're feeling or talk about the procedure before they do it, and then it becomes a lot easier. And if it doesn't, if they're still amped up, they say things like, “Hey, the good news is this is all the longer this procedure is going to be. So, in half the time it takes to watch a movie, you're going to be on your way.” 

So, they try to break it into more manageable chunks if people are apprehensive, and sometimes they have to take a little break and just let everybody sit up and breathe. And then they get back into it. But they really try to meet the patient right where they are and help them work through the situation, because it doesn't do any good if they're escalated, and Eric’s team is escalated, then they're going to have a hard time getting through the procedure.

App, Website or Tool that Eric Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about on online resource that he can’t live without in his business, Eric shared that for him, he would just say that it's his own personal website, it's hugely important whenever he gets asked, “So, hey, where do we find you? How can we get in touch with you. How can we learn more about you?” He’s very proud of his website, he had a great web designer, but through there, everything flows to his social media, to his blog, to his books, to the different opportunities that he has, some free online resources. It’s something that he’s very thankful that he spent some money on, because it's the way that a lot of people end up finding him.

Me: Perfect. And we will ask you the question for where our listeners can find you online, which I'm sure your website will be one of those resources later on in the episode.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Eric

When asked about books that have had a great impact, Eric shared that two of them definitely come to mind. One is going to be, and a lot of people have probably heard of this one is Atomic Habits: An Easy & Proven Way to Build Good Habits & Break Bad Ones by James Clear, just an incredible resource. We are the product of our habits and our routines. It is worth taking time to get good habits and routines in our lives, because everything else flows from those patterns that are in our life. So, that's a huge one. 

Another one that many people probably have not heard of as much is called In a Pit with a Lion on a Snowy Day: How to Survive and Thrive When Opportunity Roars and that's by one of his favorite authors, Mark Batterson, and it describes what we do when adversity hits in our lives, because it's not a question of if, it's a question of when things are going to happen to us, and how do we react to those things.

What Eric is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that he’s excited about, Eric stated that he mentioned the whole not good enough, and the paradigm that that presented him with. So, he used to do a lot of triathlons, mountain climbing, stuff like that, he went all the way through the Iron Man distance. He’s climbed Mount Kilimanjaro, all of that was pretty much done on a faulty operating system that he had in his mind that he wasn't good enough and he needed to prove himself to people.  

So, it's really been about 7 years since he’s done any kind of an endurance race or anything like that. He’s climbed some smaller mountains and done some stuff like that. But there's an event that he’s going to be doing the second week of August, and it's going to be at Snow Basin Resort in Utah, and it's called 29029, which is the vertical height of Mount Everest above sea level. So, the goal is, in 36 hours, he has to hike 29,000 vertical feet.

Me: Wow.

Eric shared that that's usually the first word that people say. So, what he will do is, he'll hike up this mountain, and each time he goes up, he will gain 2300 feet. So, he will hike the same mountain 13 times. So, hike up the mountain, and he will ride the gondola back down. And there's going to be 250 to 300 of them he believes that will be there doing this. And his goal for this is to one, he wanted to train for an event again, he really wanted to be focused and intentional about how he trained for it. 

But the other thing that he wants to do is he wants to learn about mindset while he’s doing it. He wants to learn what happens in his mind when he does a repetitive task for 36 hours. He wants to learn where does his mind goes on hikes number 7, 8 and 9, when he can't see the beginning of the hike and he can't see the end, and he’s really in the grind, because he thinks a lot of this will translate into our lives and what we have going on personally. So, he hopes this will be something that he'll be able to give some talks and workshops about in the future. And so, just want to see at 47 years old, just want to see what his body's got in it, what his abilities are.

Me: That's amazing, Eric, wow. I'm going to have to follow you. Are you going to be posting this on your social media? 

Eric confirmed, absolutely. 

Me: This is fantastic. I would definitely follow you from a personal capacity, just to see, as you mentioned, how do you endure? What are your thoughts? Is it that you feel overcome? Does it impact you emotionally? Like there's so many questions running through my mind right now just listening to you.

Eric stated that he’s excited. There's one time he knows as he’s hiking up that for that whole, he expects it to take about an hour and 15 minutes, probably to hike each time, and at least one of those times he’s just going to be completely quiet and he’s just going to observe the world around me. His son has made him a couple playlists, so he'll listen to some music that he selected for him. One of the times, he’s just going to pray for his family the entire time that he hikes up. So, he has a few of those things. And then, other than that, just going to see what happens. So, he’s super excited about it.

Me: And I guess it's a time also for you to kind of be one with nature and God, because you don't have much distraction, and hopefully you have no injuries, I pray in the name of Jesus that you come out of this injury free. So, you could really meditate, talk to God, as you mentioned, pray for your family and that's something that we don't get to do every day, have moments of silence, because we're just always so busy doing busy work.

Eric agreed that Yanique is so correct. He thinks if people really want their life to change, start with 5 minutes of silence each day, “Well, Eric, why only 5 minutes?” because it's not easy and we're not used to it. Start with 5 minutes of silence and breathing each day and see what that does for you, it's so important, you know this.

Where can listeners find Eric online?

Website – www.ericrecker.com

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Eric Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Eric shared that his quote is a Bible verse, and it is Proverbs 3:5-6, “Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will keep your path straight.” God has been the constant for his journey all the way through, He's been there in the good times and bad times, in the other times, and he’s trying his best to trust that He always knows what the next step is.

Me: I love that. Absolutely love that. Thank you so much for sharing. Eric.

Well, Eric, you have definitely practiced what you preach in this entire interaction that I've had with you. Thank you so very much for being a guest on our podcast, I believe that our listeners would have gained, when the episode is released, will gain a great amount of knowledge, expertise, advice, motivation. I got that from our conversation, and I can tell that you're not just speaking because it's something to do, but it's coming from your heart, and that touches people way more. I mean, people can tell if you're being authentic and genuine, if it's really coming from a place of authenticity, and I feel that in the conversation that I had with you today. So, I just want to express my deepest gratitude to you. Wish you all the best on your hike, I'm going to be there following and cheering you on and just want to say thank you again.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

•     Atomic Habits: An Easy & Proven Way to Build Good Habits & Break Bad Ones by James Clear

•     In a Pit with a Lion on a Snowy Day: How to Survive and Thrive When Opportunity Roars by Mark Batterson

Mastering Art of Service Excellence: Behavioural Tools and Competencies for CX Success Webinar – Tuesday, August 27, 2024 – 11:00 am (EST)

Mastering Art of Service Excellence Webinar Details and Registration

Daniel Ruby is a VP of Marketing at Nobl9. Ruby is a dynamic marketing executive with a focus on B2B marketing, and has significant experience building teams and driving successful, data-driven programs for a range of startups and mid-sized organizations. As the Director of Online Marketing for Localytics, Ruby was the first marketing hire and scaled his team to a full-fledged marketing department with domain specialists focused on mobile apps.  

Ruby also has a background in journalism and spent several years guest lecturing marketing courses at Bentley University, bringing this dynamic skill set to his current role at Nobl9. Ruby holds a BA in Broadcast Journalism from the University of Missouri-Columbia and an MBA in International Business from Brandeis University. 

Questions

·      We always like to start off by asking our guests if they could share with us a little bit about their journey, how you got from where you were to where you are today.

·      Could you share with our listeners, what is Nobl9 and what exactly are you providing? What service are you providing? How are you adding value to your customers lives using this platform?

·      Could you give us an example, like a use case of an application, you can choose any industry, and kind of just give us an idea of what that looks like so the audience can get a more practical view.

·    Could distinguish or differentiate for our listeners, what's the difference between an SLO and an SLA?

·      Now, Daniel, could you share with us what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

·      Where can listeners find you online?

·    Before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off track.

Highlights

Daniel’s Journey

Me: Now, Daniel, could you share with our listeners, we always like to start off by asking our guests if they could share with us a little bit about their journey, how you got from where you were to where you are today.

Daniel shared that he was a journalist for a while, and kind of realized that there was not much of a market for it, so he kind of went and got an MBA to get a job, and kind of fell backwards into marketing as it is. And over the years, he’s been with more than 10, mostly 10 startups, driving marketing, driving the customer experience in terms of from the moment that they're introduced to them as a brand until the moment that they no longer want to be or need to be working with them. 

He finds a lot of joy in trying to make that experience pleasant, for lack of a better term. He’s self-taught with most of the marketing stuff that he does, and he’s kind of over the course of the years he’s become very arrogantly convinced about a few core tenets of really communicating to customers and communicating to potential customers that have served him well, and it kind of always comes back to giving value at every step of the journey.

About Nobl9 – Enhancing Software Reliability and Value for Your Business

Me: Now, could you share with our listeners, what is Nobl9 and what exactly are you providing? What service are you providing? How are you adding value to your customers lives using this platform?

Daniel shared that Nobl9 is basically a platform for software reliability. So, if we think about how somebody engages with a digital product, or even an in-person product with a digital back end to it. They are the premier, and kind of really only well-established provider of what's called Service Level Objectives, or SLOs. And an SLO was basically taking all of the different data points that make up your product, be it from the software, from the infrastructure, from third party microservices, etc, etc, etc, and rolls it up and actually gives a customer centric view into how reliable is their product. 

And the reason that they do this is because most reliability, historically has been around is the product up. Is it up? Is it down? But anybody who's ever used a mobile app or a digital product, or even like a scan to pay service at a cafe knows that it's not just is it up? Is it working, or is everything within it doing what it's supposed to do? 

So, he knows marketers like himself have taken the word holistic and kind of beaten it to death. But they do provide a holistic customer centric view. What is the customer experience like when actually using your product?

Me: So, Nobl9 is helping the application to maintain its reliability and have as little or no downtime as possible while the customer is interacting with it correct?

Daniel agreed, correct and kind of beyond downtime, is it, does it load fast enough?

Do all of the different features load fast enough?

Is there anything blocking my ability as a customer to buy from you or to use your service, or whatever you're trying to do?

So, that's effectively what they do.

Practical Use Case – How Nobl9 Enhances Software Reliability

Me: Okay, could you give us an example, like a use case of an application, you can choose any industry, and kind of just give us an idea of what that looks like so the audience can get a more practical view.

Daniel shared that it's a little engineering, and he’s a marketer so he feels like he’s not necessarily smart enough to completely understand the engineering speak of it. But if you think about like an Ecommerce app, if you open up the app and it loads in traditional reliability, that's reliable. But how many times have you gone into an app.  

So, let's say your path in using E commerce app is, you’re going to load the app, going to search for the product that he wants to buy, he’s going to add it to his cart, he’s going to go to his cart, he’s going to check out. And maybe there's a login to My Account somewhere in the way.  

With SLOs, what you can do is you can have all of the different steps of that path viewed as part of this overarching experience with the app. So, if you go to add something to your cart, the app sits there and hangs, that's not good reliability.  

If you go to the cart itself, and for whatever reason you go to pay and like the app's connection to PayPal for whatever reason isn't working, and you get this message back that says, hey, we can't complete your payment, try another credit card or something, that's a bad experience. And that's the kind of reliability breakdown that leads people to quit using a product. 

So, they make sure that strategically, all of the things that make up that path, you'll have a server dedicated to your shopping cart, you'll have a micro service that is dedicated to completing a purchase. They make sure that all of that you've got visibility into how the experience is for the end user, not just some third-party service that tries to connect and says yes, it can connect, no it can't connect. It's the whole experience of a digital product and they make it easy to understand.

Understanding the Difference – SLOs vs. SLAs

Me: Now, at the beginning, you mentioned that it's based on your SLOs or Service Level Objectives. And just wanted to know if you could distinguish or differentiate for our listeners, what's the difference between an SLO and an SLA?

Daniel stated that that’s a great question. So, an SLA is typically an agreement that you have with your users. You say you'll be able to use my product or my service xx percent of the time. And that's more of a contractual conversation than it is, a reliability conversation. When you start actually building it, in order to make sure that you're achieving this SLA that you’ve agreed upon with your clients, you've got to make sure that you know all of these different elements of their experience are operating at a certain efficiency. So, he hates to over complicate things, but there's actually a step in between called an SLI, a Service Level Indicator. 

And so, a Service Level Indicator is things like, “I want my website to load in less than 100 milliseconds.” That's a Service Level Indicator. And the SLI is effectively a consistent goal, but then what you do with SLOs is you take that a little bit further.  

So, an SLO operates within what's called an error budget, and you get a certain number of errors per month, per week, however, you want to set it up. And an error is when you don't meet that SLI and you say, “I know that it's maybe not impossible, but either improbable or just extremely expensive to make my website load in less than 100 seconds every single time.” 

So, what an SLO does is it says, okay, I expect to meet this SLI however often I have decided is actually impactful on the customer experience, and whenever I don't, you get an error, and at that point, you're like, okay, it's an error, but an error is not an outage. 

Daniel stated that he doesn't know if he’s explaining this really well, but basically if you look at an SLO graph, it's going to be going down into the right and that is your budget. You say, okay, I expect this part of my service will meet my everyday life 95% of the time. And then you see the little graph going down, which, every time it doesn't meet that, it froze an error, and a certain amount of errors, it's just part of digital product development is understanding that you have to accept some errors. 100% perfection, it's impossible. 

Me: Does not exist.

Daniel agreed, it does not exist. And a lot of people think about reliability in the number of nines, “My product is available 99.99% of the time.” That would be called four nines. Every nine that you add to that number basically increases your IT costs by an order of magnitude. So, at a certain point, you got to understand with SLOs are really the ideal way to do it. 

At what point does this actually impact my customers?

At what point does this actually impact my users? 

It allows you to be strategic, and it allows you to see things when they begin. So, you mentioned outages earlier, an outage, your whole product crashes, it's unavailable to anybody. Those don't happen in a vacuum, there's something that causes them. And if you've got an SLO or a set of SLOs really, displaying the health of your service, the health of your product, you're suddenly going to see a bunch of errors coming in. 

And you may or may not have enough forewarning to say, “Oh, crap, we're about to have an outage. Well, this server in my cloud provider is having massive latency issues, it looks like the server is about to crash, and that's going to take everything down.” You can have a little bit more of a runway to try and identify the actual issue behind a potential outage. And that's where you strategically define how much, how many errors can I tolerate in a month? 

And then you basically have a real time view at all times. 

Is my product, is my service running the way I expect it to, and the way I expect it to is from the perspective of the customer. Are my customers able to do what they expect to be able to do when they launch my app, or when they use my product.

App, Website or Tool that Daniel Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about online resource that he can’t live without in his business, Daniel shared that personally, it's HubSpot. He spent a few years as a HubSpot consultant, a third-party consultant for HubSpot integrations. And he could say a marketing automation platform, but he got a fanboy a little bit about HubSpot because it takes everything that used to be complicated about sales and marketing and customer support and customer experience, and kind of rolls it up. You’ve got your CRM, you've got your automation platform, you've got your email platform. He’s actually taken to feeding his HubSpot metrics into Nobl9 SLO lately, because there's so much rich data within HubSpot. 

And he’s been running little things like, they'll change a script for their biz dev team. And then they'll just run a metric on calls connected to calls having a success, either a demo or a follow up request. 

And HubSpot’s got such great data, and then he can turn that into an SLO where he can say, “Okay, I expect the submission rate on my forms to be X percent. I expect the completion rate of our inside sales calls to be X percent over 80% of the time.” 

And he can run that in an SLO, he can see that like if he changes something, but simple little things, if he changes the colour of the submit button on a form, he can see in real time what the view to submission rate is that's changing, and he can act on that. He can put a little note in the SLO with that time stamp and say, “Hey, I changed the color of this button” and see how that's making an impact. Or, if he looks in HubSpot and see, “Oh, crap, my submission rate has been terrible for the past 36 hours, what's happened?” And he can go into his SLO and say, “Oh, there’s a little note here, I changed something in the UX. I changed something colour wise. I added a question, I removed a question.” And you see direct historical cause for that. 

But going back to HubSpot in general, he really respects HubSpot’s approach to they call it the flywheel, which is all about delighting customers and delighting prospects. 

And they really do a great job of giving you the tools to actually give value in your marketing and sales and customer service processes. He doesn't know what he’s do without HubSpot right now, he'd probably try and hack something together with Salesforce and Marketo and be more complicated and less easy to get adoption internally. But luckily, he doesn't need to.

Where can listeners find Daniel online?

LinkedIn – Nobl9inc

X – @nobl9inc

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Daniel Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert, Daniel shared, “Nothing is a failure unless you fail to learn from it.” He stated that he’s got a great team that he works with at Nobl9. And some are early in their career, some have been working in marketing for several years, some have advanced degrees, some don't. 

And so, he’s been with Nobl9 since January, and one of the things that he wanted to do quickly was make sure that people were comfortable making mistakes and understanding that an action and its outcome is not the end of that process. If you don't learn from it, why it worked, why it didn't, then you've made a mistake. But failure is as important an element in driving success in any business scenario. So, he likes making sure that people know that, and he likes making sure that they feel comfortable, because without being comfortable with failure, how are you going to try anything revolutionary?

Me: True. Thank you so much for sharing, Daniel.

Now, we just like to thank you so much for hopping on this podcast and sharing all of the great insights about Nobl9, the wonderful work that your team is doing as it relates to ensuring that customers are having a more seamless and frictionless experience across these platforms and increases the reliability. And we really appreciate some of the great nuggets that you shared with us as it relates to what is a Service Level Objective versus a Service Level Agreement and a Service Level Indicator, great information to learn, to understand the whole process, because in order to navigate the customer experience, there is really a lot that you have to take into account to ensure that the customer walks away feeling like, yeah, that was that was fun, it was easy, it wasn't hard, and I was able to do it really quickly. So, thank you so much.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

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Irina Vatafu has nearly a decade of experience in customer-facing roles, she is deeply passionate about working with people, and dedicated to ensuring every customer feels valued and respected. Currently serving as the Head of Customer Success at Custify, Irina thrives in roles that require effective communication, problem-solving and empathetic engagement. 

Her commitment to continuous improvement and staying current with industry trends ensures that her approach remains innovative and impactful. One of her key strengths is creating a collaborative and supportive environment that consistently delivers exceptional experiences and fosters strong customer loyalty. At the heart of her work is a dedication to championing the needs and voices of customers, which continues to inspire and drive her every single day. 

Questions

·      Now, could you share with our listeners a little bit about how you got from where you were, to where you are today?

·      You are Head of Customer Success at Custify, could you share with our listeners, what Custify is and what your company does?

·      What would you say are maybe two or three attributes or competencies that you and your team need to have on a daily basis in serving these customer success managers so they can serve their own customers?

·      Now in terms of exercising empathy, could you share with our listeners maybe a use case where your customer had an issue. So, your customer came to you as the problem solver and you were able to exercise as empathetic engagement to basically try and help them to solve the problem quickly.

·      Can you also share with our listeners, what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

·      Can you also share with our listeners, maybe one or two books that you have read, it could be a book that you read recently, or even one you read a very long time ago, but it has had a great impact on you professionally, and even personally.

·      Now, Irina, can you also share with us what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you are really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

·      Where can listeners find you online?

·      Now, before we wrap our episodes of we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying during times of adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off track, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track.

Highlights

Irina’s Journey

Me: Now, could you share with our listeners a little bit about how you got from where you were, to where you are today?

Irina stated that's a great start. So, where she was, as mentioned in the beginning, she has nearly a decade of working in customer-facing roles. And her first role was as a support engineer, and now she’s managing the team of Customer Success Managers and support team members. So, she started in first line there, she learned everything, and she was so passionate about working with customers that she always pushed herself to learn more, to offer better experiences, to progress and to make sure everyone is happy with her work and people that she works with are successful. So, yeah, baby steps, she arrived where she is today, and she’s so grateful for that.

About the Custify – What Does Custify Do? 

Me: So, you are Head of Customer Success at Custify correct? Could you share with our listeners, what Custify is and what your company does?

Irina shared that they are the CSMs of CSMs, she would say because their platform is a customer success tool. So, their end users, their customer success teams all over the world, they have customers in all countries, and they work with any business that has a SaaS product, so this is what they are doing. 

And as mentioned, their users, their customer success managers, so they are dedicated customer success managers that support other customer success managers. So, they have to be a top-notch department in order to help them drive value and be successful with their tool.

Attributes or Competencies Needed Daily to Serve Customer Success Managers

Me: What would you say are maybe two or three attributes or competencies that you and your team need to have on a daily basis in serving these customer success managers so they can serve their own customers?

Irina shared that she thinks the first thing that she has on her mind is they need to be perfect active listeners. So, they really need to listen to their customers need and to understand each business case and to be there as consultants and to make sure that they have success in their own departments, so they can prove value, and they can be their loyal customers for a long time. 

Other things that matter of course to have that business understanding. So, not only to actively listen, but to also be flexible and creative to give proper advice and to be able to quickly understand the customer use case in order to guide them towards success. 

Of course, you also need to be super organized in order to act like a project manager and help your customers achieve their milestones on time and respect all the agreed deadlines that they established with them in the beginning. 

And the last but not least, of course, you need to be a naturally empathetic person because if you don't really care, let's say about customers, they will feel that so you really need to be a people person, and to be able to have the empathy to help them.

Exercising Empathy – Using Empathy in Problem Solving

Me: Now in terms of exercising empathy, could you share with our listeners maybe a use case, you don't need to mention the customers’ name or the company, but maybe a use case where your customer had an issue, because all businesses are created to solve problems. So, your customer came to you as the problem solver, and you were able to exercise as you coin it “Empathetic engagement” to basically try and help them to solve the problem quickly.

Irina shared that she remembers, she has a recent example. It's something that their team really struggled about. They had a situation where one of their customers, the CS lead came to them saying that, “Look, we really need to make it work, because our jobs depend on that. Things are not great for our CS department. So, we really need to move forward and to prove progress to our leadership in order to keep this department working.” And this was the first priority for them because of course, their empathetic triggers were started working, and they were like, “Okay, we have an important role here, we need to help this customer.” 

And what they did, they came up with a success plan, they sat together, and they thought about all the top three priorities that the leadership would care about. And they decided that look, these are the main things that they need to focus on in the next weeks. And even if this is not part of their normal flow, they had more meetings, they had more internal brainstorming. So, they did everything they could to help the customer. 

And yes, in the end, the customer was really successful. And it's not only that, he would was grateful. But they also have more partnerships and other things that derives from that initiative. So, empathy always matters. And acting like humans when someone needs us and not only looking at the contract value and the service hours included in the subscription, she thinks they could make a difference at some point.

App, Website or Tool that Irina Absolutely Can’t Live Without in Her Business

When asked about an online resource that she can’t live without in her business, Irina shared that she thinks they internally rely a lot on what’s happening on LinkedIn, they are connected with a lot of CS influencers, and they are also following their customers on LinkedIn. 

So, they stay connected to the market with what's happening there. And they are up to date with all the webinars, with all the podcasts and everything that is happening there. So, she thinks LinkedIn is their main source of learning, and where they also find other opportunities to learn by subscribing to different newsletters and courses and everything.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Irina

When asked about books that have had an impact, Irina shared that she has a funny story about the book. So, when she joined Custify, almost four years ago, she joined as a CSM and her manager told her that look, you should read this book, it's called Never Split the Difference: Negotiating As If Your Life Depended On It and she thinks it's Chris Voss who wrote it. And it's a negotiation book and when he told her to read that book, she was angry because the job description never included negotiation, let's say so she thought, okay, she was tricked, it's actually a sales role. And her manager now advises her to learn some negotiation skills. 

But if you read the book, you will realize that you actually need negotiation skills in your day-to-day life. So, it's not about the selling or not selling something, it's really about what we need to do and negotiate for ourselves as human beings, and it makes an impact also in the professional life.

What Irina is Really Excited About Now!

Irina shared that that's a good question. So, she would say that at the beginning of this year, they as a team, they knew that it would be a tough year because of the economical context and everything that is happening in the CS life. So, she and her team decided to keep their minds and hearts open and to be the support that their customers need amid the chaos and instability that is around. So, they sat together and adapted their workflows and prioritized their champions success. So, they had like a redesign all their flows.  

And they are amazed to discover that this makes a difference. So, when all the departments work towards the same goals, they empower each other, and they focus primarily on customer success. So, they work closely with product sales, CS support in order to make sure that their customers are happy, this is a great initiative that they started this year. And they observed and they are surprised to see how authenticity and trust, being their team's current focus leads to amazing KPIs and success. So, this is their main focus right now and they are looking forward to see how this year will end.

Where can listeners find Irina online?

LinkedIn - Irina Vatafu

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Irina Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that she tends to revert to, Irina shared that yes, she thinks that's something that helps her in those situations. She’s always saying to herself, “When you don't know what to do, say the truth.” So, it always helped.

Me: So, be honest.

Well, thank you so much, Irina for jumping on this podcast and sharing all of the great insights that you're doing as a Customer Success Manager at Custify and also what your organization does, and the support that you are providing to teams all throughout the world, ensuring that they are able to solve problems and serve your customers in the best possible way. We really appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule and sharing this information with us. Thank you so much.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

•     Never Split the Difference: Negotiating As If Your Life Depended On It by Chris Voss

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience 

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners 

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty.

This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately!

This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others.

Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

Richard Weylman was orphaned at age 6 and he lived in 19 foster homes and attended 11 different schools. Rather than becoming the victim of those circumstances, he overcame them and he has had remarkable business success, including as an award-winning General Sales Manager of Rolls Royce to Head Sales and Marketing for the Robb Report, a Magazine for the Luxury Lifestyle from its inception until its record liquidity event. 

A Hall of Fame inducted Keynote Speaker, Richard has also been inducted into the Customer Experience Hall of Fame for his legendary work helping brands engage with their customers and retain them.  

He is the author of two international bestsellers, the latest of which, The Power of Why: Breaking Out in a Competitive Marketplace is in seven languages and is also a CEO Reads best seller. 

His next book 100 Proven Ways to Acquire and Keep Clients for Life was released on March 12th, and is available for pre-order on Amazon, or your favorite bookstore. Finally, he is a Horatio-Alger nominee for his philanthropic work on behalf of orphans and widows. 

Questions 

·      Could you share with us in your own words a little bit about how you got from where you were to where you are today?

·      This new book that was released almost 3 months now it's been out the book, 100 Proven Ways to Acquire and Keep Clients for Life. Could you share with our listeners maybe 3 overarching themes that the book covers? And who is the book really geared towards?

·     In your research, when you were talking to your different clients about the different ways that you can acquire and keep clients, did you find that there were some industries that were thriving with these four things that you've mentioned, based on the research and others?

·      Now Richard, could you share with our audience maybe one or two books that you've read, it could be a book that you read a very long time ago, or even one that you've read recently, but it had a great impact on you.

·      Now, Richard, could you share with our audience what's one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

·       Where can listeners find you online?

Highlights 

Richard’s Journey

Me: Now, we always like to give our guests a little opportunity to share a little bit about their journey. Could you share with us in your own words a little bit about how you got from where you were to where you are today?

Richard shared that the key thing is when all of this stuff, he was an orphan, as mentioned in his introduction, and that was very kind. But he was orphaned, and he lived in 18 foster homes, went to 11 different schools. So, you learn just from life experiences, how to understand, how to adapt, how to connect, in his case with the people with whom he was living. But he thinks we all go through this similar journey in life, you learn how to connect or not with individuals. So, that really became the premise for all of his speaking and consulting. 

And they are a research-based consulting firm, they do a great deal of research about what the consumers’ looking for, why they're looking for it. And most importantly, how salespeople, marketing people, business people can connect with the expectations, let's use that word, expectations of the consumer. So, that's what prompted his first book, Opening Closed Doors, Keys to Reaching Hard to Reach People then The Power of Why: Breaking Out in a Competitive Marketplace, which was mentioned. And those are in seven languages. 

And now his recent book, which really manifested itself after about October he would say in 2019, in the fall of 2019, it occurred to him that people were no longer talking about service anymore. They talked to people in their consulting projects, how would you rate the service of this company, and people didn't want to talk, they would say, “Well, the service is good. But let me tell you about the experience I had.” And it dawned on him that what people are really focused on good service is a minimum expectation today, what people really want, really want is an elevated experience, somebody who's thoughtful and kind and caring, and empathetic. So, that became the premise for the current book that's just come out, which is number one on Amazon hot new release. So, is that helpful?

About the Book – Who the Book is Geared Towards and it’s Overarching Themes – 100 Proven Ways to Acquire and Keep Clients for Life

Me: So, you have this new book that was released almost 3 months now it's been out. And you said it's number one on the hot new list for Amazon. Could you share with our listeners maybe 3 overarching themes that the book covers? And who is the book really geared towards?

Richard stated that that’s it's a great question. The book itself is really geared, we'll start there, who reads this book? Anybody in sales, marketing, service, leadership, he’s had over 2000 individuals that he knows of that are in either leadership roles or top advisors, top salespeople who have sent him emails because of the epiphany moments they've had in it and the reason he thinks that so many different types of people, it doesn't matter what industry, he’s got people in real estate, he got a bunch of emails this morning, people in real estate, attorney, doctors, he had a dentist sent him an email, hairdresser. 

So, it really doesn't matter what industry you're in. What really matters is do you want to acquire and keep your clients for life? And he guesses the obvious question is, “Why wouldn't you want to keep your clients for life, given the cost of acquisition?” 

So, when he wrote the book, he didn't write it for any industry, he wrote it for individuals that really did want to, shall we say, connect with their customers or their clients in such a way that those individuals would never buy from anyone else in their space. And it really is the premise is to understand the lifetime value of a customer or a client.  

And a lot of business owners, and certainly salespeople, we don't often think about the lifetime value, we sell somebody something and we see it as a transaction. When you sell someone, it's not the end of something, it's the beginning of what could very well become a lifetime relationship with that individual every single time they need something that you may offer, they can reach out to you, and they become a customer for life. So, the question is, how do you do it? So, that's where the premise of the book came from and who he wrote it for.  

So, one of the overarching themes in interviewing literally hundreds, hundreds and hundreds of consumers. And the number really reaches over 1000 in all of their consulting work over the years from 2019 until now when he wrote the book, he would ask people, “What is something someone can do, or a company can do to get your attention and keep you as a client for life?”  

And they would tell him that, and they began to write those down. And that's how he came up with the 100 Proven Ways. He didn't set out to do 100 proven ways, but what they found out is today, there are four things people look for, these are the overarching themes. They want an individual and company that is thoughtful. In other words, they'll go the extra mile, do the extra thing, take the extra moment.  

Secondly, someone that's kind, will think about things from their perspective and do things that demonstrate kindness to them as an individual. 

Thirdly, someone that cares, cares enough to find out what they really want, what they really need, and what is the right, shall we say, item for them? The right haircut, the right prescription, the right legal advice, the right advisory advice, whatever, they want somebody that cares about them. 

And last but not least, they want someone in a company that's empathetic, someone that shall we say, demonstrates that even though I'm saying it's unique to me, my problem, and you've heard it 100 times as a salesperson, you know it's not unique. For me, it is unique. So, I appreciate your willingness to be empathetic. So, four things, thoughtful, caring, kind, empathetic, those are the overarching things.

Industry Insights and Best Practices Based on Research from Book

Me: So, they need to be thoughtful, they need to be kind, they need to be caring, and they need to be empathetic. In your research, when you were talking to your different clients about the different ways that you can acquire and keep clients, did you find that there were some industries that were thriving with these four things that you've mentioned, based on the research and others?

Richard stated that it's really interesting Yanique mentioned that, and it's not so much industries, it's companies within that are doing well. Most industries are still in the transaction mode. Go to a restaurant, it's a transaction. If you order something online, it becomes a transaction. And as a result of that, people are looking for other options.  

So, what's happened is a few companies have really jumped to the front. And he'll just give you a couple of example, in the United States; they have a company called Chick-fil-A. Chick-fil-A is a chicken sandwich is basically what it is. He knew the founder, his name is Truett Cathy and they did a lot of traveling together, meetings together. And he would often say him, “Richard, now remember, we got to remind the crew here that we're not in a chicken business, we're in a people business.” 

So, they're closed every Sunday. So, that means if you want to put a characterize that differently, they're closed 52 days a year, that would mean they closed November 10 and re-open January 1, that's 52 days. 

They have the highest revenue per store than any other food franchise in the world. And they're closed from November 10 to January 1, and they're not open 24/7. 

So, the question is, why is that happening? 

Yes, it's a great chicken sandwich granted, but you get a chicken sandwich pretty much anywhere.

What they really are known for is please, thank you, and my pleasure.

And people sit in long lines at their drive thru, which are two and three lanes wide because people there say please, thank you, my pleasure. That's one brilliant example of how they do it. 

Give me another example, in the food industry, this company, for pets, and that company is called Chewy. 

Now, how has Chewy done, this young kid had started he said, when manufacturers and sellers of food products and other products for pets, they need to realize pets are part of the family. 

So, they need to take a family orientation and be kind, thoughtful, caring and empathetic with their customers about their pets. 

Well, they've done that, and just a quick, he (Richard) was speaking, he speaks all over the world. He’s spoken at the Pegasus Hotel there in Jamaica many times for various conferences, and he will tell you that he was speaking at a conference in Nashville, Tennessee, he told the story of a woman who had posted on LinkedIn. 

She posted that she had a standing order with Chewy, this was in November when he was speaking, and her order for the cat food had just arrived. 

She posted on LinkedIn, “The cat food came, I called Chewy and said my cat has died. And I want to return the cat food. They said absolutely not; donate it to the local shelter. And we'll give you 100% credit on the bill.” The audience goes wow. And he said but that's only half the story. The other half that she wrote about was 3 days later, she got a bouquet of flowers, and a condolence card from the Customer Service Rep at Chewy.

At that instant, this woman stood up in the middle of this ballroom of about 1000 people and scream, “That was my cat.” and held up her phone. She said, “I posted that this morning. I've already got 147 likes.”

And at that moment, he just stopped and said, “Ladies and gentlemen, what does this tell us about Chewy?” 

And the whole room starts chanting, “We're switching to Chewy.” 

So, there's a message here. And it's the undercurrent of what's going on in business around the world. And it's not just in the US. He'll be in France again in October speaking in a large conference there; he goes to Asia a lot.

And everywhere you go, people are really interested in doing business with individuals that are kind, thoughtful, caring, and empathetic and once he realized that, and then people began to share these ideas, if you would do this, I would be a loyal customer, he just thought it'd be helpful to put that out in the marketplace for anybody, regardless the kind of business you're in. Because it makes a big difference in your life. He heard from a guy that sells hot water heaters to hotels, and he said this book changed his business completely. So, that's the difference.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Richard

When asked about books that have had a great impact, Richard shared that one particularly, there's a series, his name is Bob Burg. And he's written a book, the original book, he was a co-author of a book called The Go-Giver: A Little Story about a Powerful Business Idea that is international bestseller, sold a couple million copies, what a fabulous book for anybody to read. And that would be one he'd recommend. 

And another one that he has co-authored with a guy named Jeff West is called Streetwise to Saleswise: Become ObjectionProofÔ and Beat the Sales Blues, it's really a great book, it just came out he would say a few months ago. And it's really a story, they write it in a story format and what he means by that is that it's like you're reading a novel, well, it is a novel. But as you're reading the novel, it's written in a way that allows you to understand various things you can do in shall we say in business to expand your influence, to make a significant impact and to really make a difference. 

Now, The Go-Giver book that he wrote, he's done a series Go-Giver Leader, The Go-Giver Sell More, and those are really dynamite books. But The Go-Giver, the original book is just oh my God, what a great book and they've sold millions of copies all over the world. 

And then the other one is Streetwise to Saleswise, another great book by he and a guy named Jeff West. That book has been out maybe a couple of months, but it's called Streetwise to Saleswise, and it's really written around the city of New Orleans and sales individual that went out there to shall we say, be in the sales business, it’s a fabulous read, particularly people like novels that have read really great nuggets on how to be a better salesperson.

What Richard is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that he’s really excited about, Richard shared that the book is doing extraordinarily well, he’s been very grateful for that. It's been selected as the lead book for the London Book Fair and the Frankfurt Book Fair this year, which is a blessing. But what he’s most excited about is he’s getting in front of more and more audiences, he’s in the Keynote Speaker Hall of Fame, and the Customer Experience Hall of Fame, and all of that is wonderful recognition. But what is really wonderful is when he has the privilege of being on the platform, and being able to share with audiences’ ways in which they can elevate their client or customer experience, and stand apart from the competition, and that's what he’s most excited about. He’s got a lot of speaking engagements coming up this fall, and in places all over the world. And just to be a blessing to those people and to bring them some thoughts that perhaps they've never had, or to have reinforced that which is that they're doing so they really feel as though, “You know what, I'm on the right track, and we're going to continue to win more business.” So, those are the things that excites him. 

Where can listeners find Richard online?

LinkedIn - Richard Weylman

Website - http://www.richardweylman.com/

Richard shared that on the website, there you can download a chapter of his book free, you can read it, you can also order the book there of course. There's also, he does a great deal of media, he guesses there's probably 25 or 30, ABC, CBS, NBC and, Fox, both TV and radio segments there, you just click on media and you can listen and watch those on various topics.  

And then also under videos, you'll see a link there, you can go to learn services. And he puts up about he’s going to guess 25 little video vignettes are a couple of minutes long that you can enjoy, they're all free, just wanted to plant those in your life. You can sign up for his performance tip that's the down at the bottom of every page but every 10 days he sends out researcher tips to about 20,000 people or subscribers, so it'd be wonderful if you subscribed. 

So, you want to go to www.richardweylman.com if you want him to speak at your conference, or at your upcoming meeting, whatever the case might be, there's a form there, fill it out, he responds to those. He actually gets those himself, he’d be happy to partner with you, and find a way that they can bring some additional learning to your organization, to your people so that they can elevate their business performance as well.

Me: All right. Thank you so much for sharing, Richard. We just want to extend our deepest gratitude to for taking time out of your very busy schedule and hopping on this podcast. You shared some great insights and nuggets as it relates to some of the keys that you need to focus on in order to acquire and keep your clients for life especially based on the research that you did. And we love the examples that you gave, they were definitely relevant and something that I believe will motivate the audience to definitely go out and get a copy of your book, whether it be in soft or hard copy so they can try and elevate their own client experiences. So, thank you again.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

•     The G0-Giver: A Little Story about a Powerful Business Idea by Bob Burg

•     Streetwise to Saleswise: Become ObjectionProofÔ and Beat the Sales Blues by Jeff West

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners 

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty.

This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately!

This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others.

Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

Debbie Miglaw is Head of Digital Solutioning & Business Development at Broadridge. She and her team of digital sales specialists, solutions architects and business analysts are responsible for consulting with clients to define the digital solutions that support their digital transformation and customer experience goals. 

The team of experts work with clients’ business and technology stakeholders to map the solution from ideation to implementation. Debbie has extensive experience in helping clients with their print-to-digital transformations. Prior to her current role, Debbie was responsible for designing and executing the product vision and strategy of Broadridge Customer Communications omni-channel solutions.  

Questions

· Now, could you start off by sharing with our listeners a little bit about your journey, how it is that you got from where you were to where you are today?

· Could you share with us a little bit about the results from that survey, maybe some key things that came out of that survey?

· In the customer experience space, what do you think are some trends that will continue? And maybe even some new ones that you're hoping to see evolve? Or even get more prominent?

· What's the one online resource tool website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

· Could you also share with our listeners one or two books that you've read, could be a book that you read recently, or even one you read a very long time ago. But it has had a profound impact on you whether personally or professionally.

· Now, could you also share with our listeners what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you are really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

· What would you say as a leader is maybe two or three things that you believe is critical to kind of raise a team members competencies up, especially as it relates to their behaviors in developing leadership skills?

· Where can listeners find you online?

· Now, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests do you have a quote or saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derail or you get off track, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Debbie’s Journey

Me: Now, could you start off by sharing with our listeners a little bit about your journey, how it is that you got from where you were to where you are today?

Debbie shared that she’s been here quite a while; it started believe it or not 26 years ago, within the Broadridge space. She started with the company it was considered USCS International, which was acquired by DST Systems. And in 2016, Broadridge acquired the DST output business. And as part of that, they really brought together the best of the customer communications business across all vertical markets. And along that journey, she spent the majority of her time heading up and leading the product organization to deliver solutions across print and digital services and she continue on in that in the last 3 years, really help focus on as you said in the intro the solutioning and helping their clients find the right solution to solve for their business objectives.

Key Insights from the Recent Survey: Understanding Trends and Findings

Me: Perfect. Now, one of the reasons why we were very intrigued to interview I believe, when we started this conversation, it would have been Matt Swain was about the report that was shared with me when the interview request was presented on your 6th Annual CX and Communications Consumer Insight survey. I understand the survey covers the overall consumer sentiment around CX within different industries. So, could you share with us a little bit about the results from that survey, maybe some key things that came out of that survey?

Debbie shared that they're very excited with the 2024 results that they've published out in the market. And one of the most prominent things that they found in the data is really that in the last 5 years, you could say 6, as most people know, 2020, they didn't do the survey. But over that time span, the number of consumers, the percentage that are dissatisfied with customer experience and believe companies need to improve that experience has doubled. 

So, it's gone from 35%, having a sentiment that is saying needs to be better to 70%. So, it's pretty significant in terms of the fact that the expectations continue to grow, but the companies aren't necessarily achieving it at the same rate. So, that's probably the first one that she would say stands out a lot.  

They also still see some things around personalization. So, when they look at the information, they find that 90% of consumers think that it's important for companies to honour their preferred communication method and a personalized communication. But only 31% think the companies are doing a good job of honouring those preferences and making it a personal experience.

And then the other third point, she would say is really around data security. That's continued to be there, she’s not sure that will ever change in her personal opinion, however, that consumers continue to crave that better experience but more than half, 54% are willing to share personal data if it's going to improve experience, so, that's really telling.  

And then she'll say the last point, she would say is that they did ask this year about AI because it's definitely out there in market. And one of the things that they found is varying feedback, of course, but Gen Z out of all the groups are particularly optimistic about the use of AI and 76% are actually saying that they have used it in some fashion and 46% say it's actually improved their experience. So, it's just a little tidbit maybe not the top three kernels that she previously mentioned, but something for us to keep an eye on.

Me: Very fascinating. So, the study was done across different industries, right? Could you share with our listeners, like maybe the sample size? And what specific industries were covered when the survey was done?

Debbie shared that this was a North American survey, it's about 75% in the US and 25% in Canada, there were 4010 residents that were 18 years and older that was doing this study, it was executed in November of 2023. So, that's the high-level background. 

And then they do actually ask about the types of industries that are providing the best experience and around the communications, and so, those industries vary from banking, credit card, utilities, health care, health insurance, telecommunications, investments, retirement, insurance loans, and then you could say, like, maybe an other for those that don't have answers, but they typically hit those. She thinks it's 10 particular industry standouts in their report.

Me: Perfect. So very, very good insights, especially for those of our listeners that are in the United States and Canada, we do have a lot of listeners that are outside of that region. But it's still fascinating information to keep into consideration, because probably the same execution could be done for your region if you're listening to this, and you're not in North America, you could possibly do something similar to what Broadridge did. Because the industries exist in these regions, they just probably don't have the data to support it. So, thank you so much for sharing, Debbie.

Emerging Trends in Customer Experience

Me: Now, Debbie, based on your own experience in the whole customer experience space, because you have a lot of background in that, especially working with Broadridge and your previous experience. And of course, seeing that were basically halfway through 2024. What do you think are some trends that will continue? And maybe even some new ones that you're hoping to see evolve? Or even get more prominent?

Debbie stated that that's a good question. She would say that trends that they see is really a combination of how do we accelerate that digital transformation and improve the customer experience, and also lower costs and so especially more so probably in the US than some of the other areas like Canada and such, the postal rates increased dramatically. So, top of mind for companies, is to actually reduce that paper and try to get to digital quickly. But also, how do you do that? So, paperless adoption strategies is going to continue to be one of the top initiatives and trends that we see that will not change she doesn't think anytime soon. 

But she thinks really what's happening is companies out there in the industries, they're really looking to figure out how do they best do it? We sometimes talk about especially you've talked to Matt Swain in the past, and it's the carrot versus the stick often comes up. And they're seeing a mixture of trial and error in there, especially with the stick. 

They're really looking at how do people actually accelerate that customer experience in a way that potentially doesn't have that heavy IT cost to do it. So, she thinks they're starting to also see a trend around the make, buy, build kind of conversation. Do you build, do buy, do you partner? And so, seeing a lot of that in order to actually accelerate that transformation.

App, Website or Tool that Debbie Absolutely Can’t Live Without in Her Business

When asked about online resource that she can’t live without in her business, Debbie stated that that's interesting, for her, she uses so many, their company probably from a perspective of she'll say, their research uses a variety of different tools. They all use LinkedIn as one source. But more than anything, when they're looking at customer experience, they look at things like UserTesting, as a way to gauge what the consumer sentiment is against the communication experience. So, that's definitely one, especially in the customer experience, and communications and consulting area. So, they definitely rely on that. And believe it or not, they like to just go out and essentially see and experience the experiences for themselves. So, meaning they might actually go to a lot of companies that they're either talking to as prospective clients or existing clients to get a sense of competitive landscape of what the best customer experiences are. So, a lot of times that personal research is the best tool that we have.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Debbie

When asked about books that have had a great impact, Debbie stated that that's a good question and shared that she now can't remember the name of the book, unfortunately. But it was quite some time ago, there was a book that was really around innovation and the way we think, and what innovation means. And a lot of it had to do with the small startup business and it really made her think how you can actually have that startup mentality and how you apply it into a larger corporation. And she thinks that's one thing she has the privilege of working with the team that does a lot of that innovation for Broadridge in terms of the innovation lab and R & D. And so, their Chief Digital Officer, Rob Krugman spends a lot of time going out and exploring these different opportunities. And so, she thinks the creation of that particular unit within their company in the last couple of years has really helped kind of expand the opportunities that they might be able to bring to market.

What Debbie is Really Excited About Now!

Debbie stated that that’s good question. She thinks right now, their focus short term happens to be the end of their fiscal year. So, they have a very aggressive sales goals from that perspective, it's there. Ironically, when she talks about end of year, the personal side of that is it's the end of the school year going on right now so they're in the week of things like her daughter's 8th grade graduation, kind of those activities. So, it's kind of interesting that the timing of their fiscal is also the end of school year activities. And so, they're really aligned on staying focused, getting through all the activities that are there. So, very much a streamlined set of activities, both personally and professionally.

Fostering Leadership Competencies: Strategies for Elevating Team Members’ Skills and Behaviors

Me: Now, you do a lot of work as a leader, Debbie in your organization. And I imagine, as a leader, you have to kind of hone and develop other people's skills so that they can become truly functional in their role, but not necessarily from a technical perspective, but also from a development perspective, meaning they have the ability to motivate and inspire others. What would you say as a leader is maybe two or three things that you believe is critical to kind of raise a team members competencies up, especially as it relates to their behaviors in developing leadership skills?

Debbie shared that for me, a lot of it is empowering the employees to essentially try and do and a lot of times, that's what creates the growth. So, a lot of the approach that she’s taken as a leader over the years is, after we've done sort of, like you said that a technical type education and product knowledge, some of those kinds of things the company is then they do a lot of, say, ride along. So, ride along with a meeting to listen, hear how it's actually executed, especially if it's like a sales or product related meeting. And then giving the opportunity for that person to actually lead where you sort of follow on. So, you're there as a safety net to help. And she thinks that really empowers people to let them be the experts when a leader or someone that might have more experiences on the phone. Because a lot of times what happens is people naturally defer to the person with more knowledge. So, she’s found that that's a really good way to raise that confidence, and give them experience.  

And again, a little bit of a safety net to get there and typically, those folks that have the aptitude, really just run with it. And before you know it, basically they're running it on their own, and they don't necessarily need you there. So, that's a great thing to see as a leader. 

And she thinks the other is really kind of coaching around the communication aspect, and that really varies. She knows for like in her product role a lot of times in the past it was very technical you could say right, the accuracy what you're saying, and then trying to balance that when the right opportunity is there. 

Do you need to be a little bit more optimistic and sales oriented?

Do you need to be more practical, here's what's real? 

And guiding people through that process of understanding the situation that you're in, in order to convey the right message right? And it's not about accuracy of the information, it's just more about that influential speak when it's appropriate, when it's not type situation. So, those are a couple of things that really stand out for her.

Where can listeners find Debbie online?

LinkedIn – Debbie Miglaw

Website – www.broadridge.com

LinkedIn – Matt Swain

2023 CX and Communications Consumer Insights Survey

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Debbie Uses 

When asked about a quote or saying that she tends to revert to, Debbie shared that she does, her quote is “The best is yet to come.”

Me: Do you like to elaborate a little bit on it for our listeners?

Debbie shared that for her view, it's tough when you're in it, and a lot of times we forget to look ahead and how we're going to get past a difficult situation. And so, she thinks if we just have that little bit more optimistic view that on the other side, things will get better. And so, it's kind of funny, it comes up in other panels that she’s spoken on in person. And she always say it's also a song, so it's kind of you can have it as a motto, a song, a saying, but the best is yet to come. So, whether it is in your personal life or in work, she could say the best customer experience is yet to come, right. The best for her daughter's future is yet to come. So, kind of looking at it from that angle.

Me: Very nice. Alright. Well, Debbie, thank you so much for jumping on this podcast and sharing the great insights that you did about the report that Broadridge did, as well as in your own function and capacity in terms of leading your team and some recommended trends that you believe will continue as well as evolve in the space of customer experience. The conversation was extremely insightful, and I'm sure our listeners gleaned quite a lot of information from our conversation, so that thank you so much.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners 

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty.

This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately!

This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others.

Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

Joel Passen is a proven technology entrepreneur and leader with 20+ years of success creating value and driving measurable results at the intersections of sales, business development, product strategy, operations and customer experience.  

Before co-founding Sturdy, a next-gen customer experience solution that helps companies improve customer satisfaction. Joel co-founded Newton Software, a B2B SaaS company headquartered in San Francisco that was acquired by Paycor (2016). Prior to that, Joel co-founded Gravity Technologies, Inc., a company that owned and operated businesses in the talent acquisition industry, including the first recruitment processing outsourcing company focused on technical talent.

Questions

· So, could you share with our listeners, how it is that you got from where you were to where you are today?

· Could you share maybe 1 to 3 top I would say areas that you believe as an organization, especially in your industry that you believe it's important for you to focus on or it drives your success in the space of ensuring that you're delivering a great or a fantastic customer experience.

· If you want to maybe debunk maybe one of the biggest customer service myths that you see organizations still using as a driver in their business, when really and truly that shouldn't be anything that they should be guided by, what would you say that is based on your observation and experience?

· Now, Joel, can you also share with us what's the one online tool, resource, website or application that you absolutely cannot live without in your business?

· Can you also share with our listeners, maybe one or two books that you have read, it could be a book that you read recently, or even one that you've read a very long time ago, but it still has had a great and profound impact on you. And that can be either professional or even a personal impact.

· Now, Joel, can you also share with our listeners, what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you are really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

· Could you tell us a little bit about your organization Sturdy, exactly what it does. And if they wanted to connect with you, or Sturdy, how they could find you online?

· Now, Joel, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to give our guests a chance to share with our listeners, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derail or you get off track or you get knock down and the quote kind of helps to just motivate you to get back up and to push forward and to complete whatever would have knocked you down. Do you have one those?

Highlights

Joel’s Journey

Me: So, we like to give our guests an opportunity to share in their own words, a little bit about your journey. So, could you share with our listeners, how it is that you got from where you were to where you are today?

Joel shared that he appreciates this question. So, he’s always a commercial leader, meaning he’s always had responsibility not only for net new growth, but also for responsibility for customers. And where he is today, in terms of having started a company that focuses on using AI to ultimately improve the customer experience by deeper listening to customers, he thinks for him, the journey was more of like, and this may sound a little off putting to some, but he was kind of like a frustrated engineer to a certain extent. He was a frustrated commercial person in many ways. So, he thinks the desire to sort of solve a problem that he had as an operator, a commercial operator for two decades, has led him to where he is today, which is trying to solve that problem at scale.

Areas Organizations Needs to Focus On to Ensure the Delivery of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Me: So, could you share maybe 1 to 3 top I would say areas that you believe as an organization, especially in your industry that you believe it's important for you to focus on or it drives your success in the space of ensuring that you're delivering a great or a fantastic customer experience.

Joel shared that he likes everything in 3, so absolutely. But the first thing is, in many ways he thinks that removing the abstraction layers between our customers, and the level of leadership within organizations that can actually do something about the issues that we're hearing is really important. And what he means by that is, he thinks for the last 10 or 15 years, we've created not only technology driven abstraction layers like chatbots, and automated knowledge base stuff and it's all sort of addressing what he would think of as a symptom, but not necessarily is the root cause of perhaps customer frustrations in terms of customer experience. 

So, an example would be like if we have to continue to build these really acute knowledge bases and what we're addressing is constant customer confusion, for example, wouldn't it make more sense to take the data that we're deriving about what's confusing the customer, take it back to our product teams or services organizations, and address the root cause. So, number one is, he thinks we've got too many abstraction layers between us and our customers. 

Like number two is, the people that are responsible for customer experience, and ultimately, you're holding the bag and oftentimes, perhaps even the number for the board can only solve about 30% of the problems that we face around customer experience or challenges we face about customer experience within the organization. So, for example, going back to like a product or service, which ultimately, we deliver to an end user. If he’s the customer experience person, and he’s holding the bag for that number, whether it's some sort of arbitrary number like not arbitrary, but he guesses arbitrary, like NPS or CSAT, like something that we're being measured on, but even more importantly, a revenue number. He has to rely on his other teammates to ultimately contribute to the success of that experience. And that's a big challenge. 

And he thinks the third one is kind of an expansion on that topic, which is, he thinks that we've lost sight as organizations at large that everybody's job is customer experience, providing the best customer experiences we can, whether it's the billing team that designs processes around auto renewing, and billing customers, to the product teams that are delivering product to the services teams that are delivering services, to the sales teams that are an account management teams that are being truthful and ethical and honest about what we actually can provide in terms of value.

Debunking Customer Service Myths

Me: Now, in listening to you, I also wanted to know if you could share with us, you've been in the whole customer experience space, and you're noted as a top customer experience voice on LinkedIn. If you want to maybe debunk maybe one of the biggest customer service myths that you see organizations still using as a driver in their business, when really and truly that shouldn't be anything that they should be guided by, what would you say that is based on your observation and experience?

Joel stated that it's going make me unpopular. He’s going to lose the popularity contest on this answer, and he’s going to treat this less like a cable news show, so, he’s not going to swear. But if you do follow him on LinkedIn, it's not just to be incendiary. But he really thinks health scores of customers are one of the most overused, underpowered abstraction layers that people use, he thinks they're garbage. And he’s speaking from experience, not because he has something against them, or the companies that help us build them or anything like that. It's because too many times, he’s been in executive leadership team meetings, and he takes the board slides in, and he’s got all these green lights on maybe with their top revenue accounts, for example. And he goes back to team meetings two weeks later to go back through the account reviews, and so many times he’s gone from green to gone with no leading indicators along the way that has ever given him any kind of indication that they were in trouble. So, that's his answer. And some people are in love with health scores, and they spent a lot of time building them, and quite frankly, he thinks they're full of telemetry data and opinions that just don't yield anything that he can use as an executive leader.

App, Website or Tool that Joel Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about online resource that he cannot live without in his business, Joel shared GPT 4. As an early-stage entrepreneur, he feels like he spends a lot of time sifting through data, and crafting messaging. But to make a finer point, like, for example, he has a client, they're called Hawke Media, they're one of the largest independent ad agencies in the United States. And his outbound sales team, let's say, wants to find more companies that are similar to these folks. And there are hundreds of these types of agencies in the United States, not of the same magnitude of Hawke Media, but similar. And when you go into LinkedIn Sales Navigator, and all these other Apollo or ZoomInfo. With all the metadata tags that are in the systems, it's really hard to get a filtered list, for example. 

So, last night, he was watching a hockey game, and he typed a simple query into GPT 4 and said, “Give me 300 companies that look and feel like this particular company that are based in the United States and then put their name in column A of a CSV and send it to me,” and it did it and it's super accurate. And it's that kind of stuff that it's just mind blowing. Some of the things you can do with it. So, GPT 4, probably for him, can't live without it.

Me: Amazing. It's fascinating when I heard the prompt that you just gave it now. It's very important that what you put in is what you get out almost like the quality of the question you asked determines the quality of the response that you get back. So, the fact that you are so specific in terms of what you were looking for, the teams, the column that you wanted it in, the fact that you wanted it to be for a specific geographic location, and not just to the world, and the fact that it gave you back that information, so specifically, the prompt that you put into it is so critical to the output that it gives you.

Joel stated that that's a good point, not to scratch his back at all. But he would tell people start with being ultra specific, if you haven't leaned into GPT. 

First of all, it's worth the 20 bucks a month for GPT 4. It's really powerful and it can produce graphs and charts and statistical things you can enter, for example, he was working on some like a VC deck the other day for a friend of his, not for his company. But he was having a trouble with like, processing the information from his total addressable market into like a graphical form. Like he's not a designer, he's a spreadsheet person. 

And so, he took his spreadsheet, uploaded it to his version of GPT 4 in Azure, so it's privatized without any kind of PII in it, he paid 20 bucks a month for it. And it spit out a graphical representation that with a little bit of tweaking and the coloring could be used in a deck, it's really great. So, there's just some really crazy things you can do with it. But start with being more specific and dial it back, rather than starting with broad requests and commands, because then you're going to get frustrated.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Joel

When asked about books that have had a great impact, Joel stated that he’s going to reveal that his dad is an Industrial Psychologist, PhD in Industrial Psychology. And he's written a bunch of papers on emotional intelligence, EQ and EI. And so, he’s kind of a big fan of Dan Pink, or Daniel Pink. They are business books, so they might be a little cliche for some people. But in 2005, he wrote a book called A Whole New Mind: Why Right-Brainers Will Rule the Future, Right Brain. It's kind of like the why right brain thinkers are the future. And he thinks there's a lot of interesting things in there that are pretty applicable today. Despite his little claim of using GPT, which might be more of a left brained example, he’s probably a stronger right brained person with communication skills, specifically, rather than somebody that's going to put their head in a spreadsheet all day. And he thinks there's some really telling things and some really interesting things that people could use, both earlier in their career and even later in their career with the Daniel Pink book. 

And then he thought one of the other books that he read recently, when he thought about this was “The Billion Dollar Loser : The Epic Rise and Spectacular Fall of Adam Neumann and WeWork”, written by Reeves Wiedeman, it's the Adam Neumann story about work, he doesn't know, if Yanique have read that. It's actually kind of a fiery read, like, it's a cool book. But he thinks for him, the story was really interesting, if you're interested in business, but it also is a really stark reminder that humility is really important in business, being honest, and being humble is a marathon play, but it's also the right play, it'll get you to the finish line. So, he thought that was a good reminder for him and anyone else that is in business and thinking about their own sort of virtue.

What Joel is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that he’s really excited about, Joel shared that he’s really excited about for me, he works at a company that builds applied AI products and essentially helping businesses listen to their customers more carefully, and actively for that matter. 

And he thinks what he’s most excited about is sort of the evolution of AI in an ethical way. So, one of the things if you read any of the business reports from the industry analysts and in the industry consulting firms, the Beans, you read any of the stuff from the Harvard Business Review, fairly objective sources, people are really scared about using AI in their businesses specifically, let alone personally, but he’s thinking about it in a business light. 

And he thinks what's starting to happen is that the hype is dying down a little bit and we're starting to see a more practical light in the application of AI where it's not so risky, and that it is truly not going to replace everybody's jobs, it's going to help us sift through larger and larger datasets together, so we can get to the root of very specific problems and solve for the root, going back to him at the top of the show when he talked about abstraction layer. So, for him, he’s really excited about that, more and more companies are adopting AI and doing so in an ethical, responsible, privacy conscious way. And the wild, wild west is starting to fade into the background as quickly as it grew, and he thinks that's exciting to him, and he knows that sounds kind of nerdy, but that for him is progress.

About Joel’s Organization Sturdy and How Can Listeners Find Joel Online

Joel shared that Sturdy is very easy to find, he'll start there, but it's sturdy.ai. And he thinks for the relevancy of your listeners and our listeners today is, their our thesis was that ultimately, the customer experiences is really the responsibility of every team. Again, he mentioned operations services, product sales, marketing, leadership, everybody's responsible for customer satisfaction and customer experience. And ultimately, that leads to everybody being in charge of revenue and retention. And what they've realized over the years as being operators of businesses is that 75% of customers expect businesses to use some sort of technology to better their experiences, like the time is now yet we have all these silos in our business. 

So, what their business does, what Sturdy does is plugs into all of your data hubs where you're collecting communications from your customers, those day-to-day interactions, those really rich meaningful, those emails, the tickets, the calls transcripts, even unstructured tests like text like surveys, they take all of that information in, privatize it. And they run language models on it to help find topics and trends to help improve the customer experience. And then make agents to deliver this data to the teams and the people and the systems that need it the most. So, that's basically what they do. And they find that the outcomes are their customers are improving their NPS and CSAT scores almost immediately, because they're more actively listening to their customers. But they're also seeing pretty strong lifts in customer retention and revenue as well. So, both expansion and retention revenue. 

And he’s easy to find, personally, Joel Passen as mentioned, he talks a lot about customer experience and satisfaction on LinkedIn. And you can find him on LinkedIn, he’s pretty active there. And otherwise, he just joel@sturdy.ai.

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Joel Uses

When asked about a quote that he tends to revert to, Joel shared that he’s going to disappoint people, because this isn't like super profound. But he tells his kids this too and his dad used to tell him this like, “Every day is like the first day of school, you can reinvent yourself.” The ability for humans to reinvent themselves is surreal, it's crazy. And if he’s having a bad day, or he’s down or he’s stuck, he literally thinks about the next day and say, tomorrow's my day, I can be whoever I want, I can solve whatever I want. He shared that he sounds like that guy on Saturday Night Live, Stuart Smalley. But reinventing, every day is an opportunity to reinvent yourself. And he thinks that's what keeps him going and he truly believes that even if you had a bad day or a bad interaction with your family or your team or what have you, tomorrow's a new day.

Me: Great. Thank you so much for sharing, Joel.

Thank you so much for hopping on our podcast and sharing all of these great insights as it relates to customer experience and debunking the myths in customer experience that a lot of organizations are still driven by. Also talking about your organization Sturdy and just where you see artificial intelligence going and how the adaptation is being taken more in a practical role now as all the fanfare and excitement is dying down and people are really seeing how they can integrate it in a very practical and useful way not just to eliminate human interaction but to add to the value that they are using the technology to enhance the quality of the experience that the customer is having. So, thank you so much.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

•     A Whole New Mind: Why Right-Brainers Will Rule the Future by Daniel Pink

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners 

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty.

This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately!

This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others.

Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

Alan Williams is the founder of SERVICEBRAND GLOBAL and advises business leaders internationally to deliver value driven service. 

Dave Stubberfield is the director of Carter Consultancy and specializes in enabling cultural transformation to help businesses achieve greatness. They are the authors of Supercharging the Customer Experience: How Organizational Alignment Drives Performance.  

Questions

· We always like to ask our guests if they could share in their own words a little bit about their journey. So basically, how it is that you got from where you were to where you are today.

· Now, the both of you teamed up together and wrote this awesome book Supercharging the Customer Experience. Can you share with our listeners a little bit about the book, maybe two or three overarching themes that the book focuses on and who is the book geared towards?

· What are maybe two or three behaviors that you believe is critical for customer success in a business both from an employee perspective and from the leadership perspective.

· So, could you share maybe just some insight for us on what you believe is the future of AI as best as you can, because AI does cover a lot of stuff. But what do you believe is the future of AI? And how will that impact human interaction?

· So, can you also share, and each of you can give me your answer to this particular question. What's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely cannot live without in your business?

· If you could share with me maybe a book that you read recently, or even a very long time ago, but it has still had a very great impact on you, whether from a professional capacity or even a personal development capacity.

· Now, can you also share with us what's the one thing that is going on in your life right now that you're really excited about, either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

· Where can listeners find you online?

· Now, before we close off the episode, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that in times of adversity or challenge you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get the real or you get off track, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Alan and Dave’s Journey

Me: We always like to ask our guests if they could share in their own words a little bit about their journey. So basically, how it is that you got from where you were to where you are today.

Alan Williams: Alan shared that he started off in commercial hospitality management. So, he remembered being at school thinking, he wants to go to university, but he wants to do a degree that's going to help him get a job. 

And he really didn't like the idea of what he at that time considered to be really boring businesses like banking, where you're sat in an office all day. And he was lucky enough to get a holiday job in a hotel, and he thought that's it, exciting, looking after people, fun. 

So, that was the beginning. And then he moved somewhat later in his career into workplace management. So you might know it as facilities management, so all of the services in workplaces offices, and he referred to them those offices actually, as they're really hotels with desks instead of beds, that's the only difference. And then he set up SERVICEBRAND GLOBAL in 2005, and he’s been helping progressive leaders in organizations around the world since then, using what he learned in the hospitality sector. 

Dave Stubberfield: Dave shared that for him, he guesses similar to a degree. So, he was just about leaving school and the careers advisor said, you've got the potential to go to university, but he didn't really know what for. So, he decided against it and tried the apprenticeship route in the corporate space, which he loved, and a lot of customer facing roles. Then there was an initiative called Lean, where he became kind of a Six Sigma qualified individual. And then it just kind of spiraled into attaching customer experience to the continuous improvement framework, really. And how changes adapt in organizations. And then, 2020 set up Carter Consultancy, and he hasn't looked back since. So yeah, he loves what he does.

About Alan and Dave’s Book – Supercharging the Customer Experience and Three Overarching Themes the Book Focuses On

Me: All right, thank you so much, gentleman. Now, the both of you teamed up together and wrote this awesome book Supercharging the Customer Experience. Can you share with our listeners and either of you can answer this question, a little bit about the book, maybe two or three overarching themes that the book focuses on and who is the book geared towards?

Dave Stubberfield: Dave shared that he’s known Alan for a few years now. But it just so happens that they were interested in creating a customer experience development programme for the BQF, The British Quality Foundation. And the President kind of joined them together and said, “Look, you're both trying to achieve the same things.” So very, very quickly, during their initial meeting, they realized that they are very aligned in how they think and what they wanted to achieve. And through the development of that programme, and Alan out of the blue turns and he said to Dave, “This has got the makings of a great book. Do you want to write one?” And like a rabbit in the headlights, he just kind of froze, and then said, “Yes, let's do that.” 

And so, through Alan's guidance from his previous experience of being an author, he's brought him on that journey with him and he’s really, really enjoyed it. And the foundation to the book really stemmed from the training, the development programme they put together, which is really all about putting CX into context. They believe there's a lot of content out there. He’s going to leave Alan to drop the question in a second, but they believe there's a lot of content out there. But they believe that the actual application of customer experience doesn't happen as frequently as it should, which led us to the question, Alan?

Alan Williams: Alan shared that's right. When they were thinking about the book, they were thinking, well, how is this book going to be any different to all of the others out there on the topic of customer experience? Because don't know if you've checked, but there's just like so many books on the topic. And they just found themselves with this question, which is, “With all the content on the topic that's out there, why is great customer experience so rare?” It doesn't make sense if there's all that resource out there to guide people. 

And that was what Dave's just touched on there that the problem, and the challenge is that so much of the time people are focused on content, and knowledge, rather than the practical application of that knowledge on a day in day out basis. And that's why the great customer experience is so rare. And in the book, they provide a framework that helps you whatever sector you're in, wherever you are in the world, whatever the size of your organization provides you with a framework that can help to guide you create your own customer experience strategy that suits your own particular individual circumstances.

Me: All right, so let's use a use example, a use case, I like the fact that you gentleman said that you want to focus on the practical because you are very correct. There are many, many books out there on CX and EX. And you read the content, and it's focused on knowledge, the definitions, the theory, but how does that really work with an organization, with people, with their behaviour, we getting them motivated with having them intrinsically applying that in every single interaction regardless of the channel that they're serving the customer on. So, you can choose a business, I will leave it up to you in terms of the use case, just give us an example of based on the framework that you have in the book, how does this really apply to a business?

Alan Williams: Alan shared that he’s not even going to choose a particular business. He thinks that sometimes when you do that, you're kind of dragged into generalization. So, he’s just going to tell you a story. And it was a business that he was working in and they focused really hard on everybody that was in the organization understanding that they were part of delivering a great customer service and their job was to make their customers and clients feel important, that was the reason that they were all there. 

And he remembered on reception, they were expecting a guy attending a very important meeting. And so obviously, they knew in advance that he was arriving, and they have pre-prepared a name badge, they also aimed to greet people before they introduce themselves in this particular environment. And so that happened, the receptionist greeted the gentleman by name, but they had not expected one thing, and that is that he brought with him a small terrier dog. Now, the receptionist actually said to him, complimented him on the dog, and then said, “And now Sir, if you could just lift him up in front of the camera.” and produce a name badge for the dog. And the guy went into the meeting room and announced to the people from the client organization, “That is the best welcome I've ever had anywhere in the world.” And then the meeting was a great success, down to that receptionist. So, the reason he loves that story is because it really emphasizes the importance of people understanding the big why they're there, rather than getting consumed and distracted with the small tasks that they might have to do in order to satisfy them.

Behaviours that are Critical for Customer Success in a Business from an Employee Perspective and from the Leadership Perspective

Me: Now, based on your research, and your experience, both of you in the CX space, if you were to choose maybe two or three behaviours that you believe is critical for customer success in a business, and I'm not just talking from the employee perspective, but also from the leadership perspective, like what are the three key behaviours that will more than likely lead to a culture where people have that customer centric mindset, regardless of the type of customer, how complex the problem or issue might be, but they're always driven by that because of those core behaviours. Would you be able to identify what those if you were to pick three, what those would be?

Dave Stubberfield: Dave shared that he can start with one for sure. And the one that leaps out with him is Empathy. And that runs from a kind of a customer facing team into the customer, but like you said, it's the leadership into to the rest of the teams and the organization. He thinks having that empathetic understanding of what people might be trying to do, or what they're going through, is so powerful. 

And we're stepping into the realms of emotional intelligence here. And to the point that Alan's just made in that in that story, which is fantastic. People have to buy into that, right. So, they have to buy into that culture of trying to achieve and deliver that experience, not once but every single time. And he thinks that starts with a lot of empathy. He knows some leaders that are not very empathetic, shall we say, and don't understand why they can't achieve the results they want to achieve, not only in the business, but in the customer experience space as well. So, he would lead with empathy being one of the most powerful ones because it unlocks so much. Alan, I don't know if you've got anything to add to that at all?

Alan Williams: Alan shared that he'll go with number two, though, which he thinks is about positivity. So, when a customer asks you for something, the answer is yes. And it might not be exactly what they were expecting or had asked for. But how often do you hear, no, can't do that. And that's really not a good start to a conversation. So, he'd follow empathy with Positivity.

Dave Stubberfield: Dave stated that he would go number three is probably Communication. And that he guesses all ties everything up together nicely. He thinks sometimes, again, starting at the top with leadership, they might send a message once, whether it's via email, or it could be in person, it could be a presentation, and some people think that they can just deliver that message once and everyone gets it and understand it, it needs to be reinforced, it needs to become part of the embedded as part of the DNA of the organization. And that message needs to be repeated so it's understood and lived every single day. And he thinks having a great deal of empathy, and positivity, it just needs to be reinforced through communication, he personally believes.

Alan Williams: Alan asked can they give you just one extra one as a bit of added value. So, he'd go with Obsessive Attention to Detail. And this is kind of every person, every day, every minute, because consistency is what makes the great businesses set apart from those that are good some of the time. And that's because everybody in the organization knows the fine detail of what's required, and is then committed to delivering that every single time.

Me: All right, so Empathy, Positivity, Vommunication and Obsessive Attention to detail. Okay, thank you so much, gentlemen. 

Insight on the Future of AI and How it Will Impact Human Interaction

Me: Now, I liked the fact that most of what you talked about focuses on people, focuses on behaviour, focuses on relationships, practical things that we can see, things that we do every day. I found, and I'm sure you've seen it as well, that in the last, I would say, maybe two or three years or even before but definitely in the last two or three years, there has been a lot of emergence in the space of technology with artificial intelligence. And I find that organizations sometimes may not necessarily be integrating it or using it in the best way possible to ensure that it's not replacing humans, but more so helping humans that can really help the overall experience. 

And I'll give you an example. Over the weekend, I had a friend that has a mobile modem and we were having some issues adding some data to it and we called our local telecommunication company, reached out to them through their website. Actually no, we did it through their app that was on the phone, but the app has a Bot at the top and the bots name was Ruby. But Ruby can't answer any questions, Ruby doesn't remember what you told her before. And so, you tell Ruby, I'd like to speak with a representative, Ruby starts a conversation again, “Please provide me with your name and account number. Please tell me exactly what your query is about.” And I told Ruby that before and I felt like I was going in circles, it was just crazy. So, could you share maybe just some insight for us on what you believe is the future of AI as best as you can, because AI does cover a lot of stuff. But what do you believe is the future of AI? And how will that impact human interaction?

Dave Stubberfield: Dave shared that it's really interesting. And they cover a lot of this in the book. And honestly, you could spend hours upon hours doing research. And he kind of immersed himself into this. You're spot on, AI is kind of forefront of technology at the minute, everyone seems to be dipping into it. You've also got augmented reality that people are looking at as well and they are fantastic things, and it's just incredible what some of these things can do. The problem that organizations have today is they see something shiny, something sparkly and go, right, we need that. And they try and integrate it and it's just kind of a lift and shift, kind of slot it into a place, and it fits in just or they've squeezed things around, and they go perfect. We can take our AI integration box off, we've done that. 

But like you've just said there, there's not been any kind of sort of thinking or thought process around how we actually integrate that to the all of the other services and ways of communication that we have as an organization, that omni channel element hasn't been considered, we just see AI as a way potentially to do something with generative text, for example. And we go yep, okay, we can we can get that in, we can do that there, and boom, it's done. It's thinking about the entire process. 

And he thinks another element to that is, let's say one organization in a certain industry does something that's quite revolutionary. Other companies in the same industry or even outside the industry might try and replicate that and they haven't considered how they operate as an organization, the value they deliver to their customers, and if it actually works. He thinks a lot of people feel like they might miss the boat if they don't sort of get on board with the technology bus, because it's just constantly changing. So, there's a lot of risk when it comes to technology, you need to do your research, your homework and what fits for the business. 

And for him, it's thinking about it from a people point of view, technology's forefront of the minute AI, you name it, there's lots it can do. But it needs to work for people. And that's the thing, really, he thinks sometimes isn't considered. So, that would be his thought. Alan, I don't know if you've got anything to add to that at all.

Alan Williams: Alan shared that he thinks that the issue is that people consider technology to be an alternative solution, whereas in fact, it should just be a support to people. So, when you've got predictability and high volume, then sure, he thinks technology can be a massive help in that sort of situation. But where you've got unpredictability, and perhaps volume that is up and down, then it's much less helpful. And it might be that a human being could deal with that much, much better. So, the big thing, though, is this thing about technology being a tool, rather than the be all and end all and he liken it to a scalpel, a scalpel in the hands of a really experienced surgeon can save people's lives. But in the hands of somebody who doesn't know what they're doing can be really dangerous. And it's the same with tech and customer experience.

App, Website or Tool that Alan and Dave Absolutely Can’t Live Without in Their Businesses

When asked about an online resource that they can’t live without in their business: 

Dave Stubberfield: Dave stated what a question. He’s going to be totally contradictory to what he just said, he going to go ChatGPT. So, he uses that as a bit of a sounding board, really. So, in his organization, it's just him. So, sometimes when he has a bit of an idea, he thinks, “Oh, okay, maybe I should post it on social media or I should do this and have a bit of an idea.” He will often ask Alan because they are very alike, but sometimes he will just put a bit of a question into ChatGPT and asked for maybe what's relevant or how he should do a certain thing. And knowing that it's not always 100% accurate, he uses that as kind of as a gauge really to see if he’s on the right track.