Albert Galarza is the Global Vice President of Human Resources at TELUS International. He joined the organization in 2016, and has over 20 years of experience in human resources across retail and technology industries. In his role at TELUS International, Albert leads an HR organization of over 600 professionals supporting almost 50,000 team members in 20 countries. He is responsible for the entire HR suite of services including HR Generalists, Talent Acquisition, Compensation & Benefits, HR Operations and People Analytics.
Questions
Highlights
Albert’s Journey
Albert shared that he is originally from Mexico, he was actually born and raised in Mexico, and he lived there till his teenage years, when they moved to the US and he has had the privilege of living in several states throughout the US both personally and for professional reasons. And he has had the great pleasure of travelling throughout many, many countries, both for personal reasons, and mostly for professional reasons as his bio says; they currently support 50,000 team members in 20 countries and he has been to every one of those countries that they operate in. So it's been a great, great experience for him to be part of this organization.
He still visits Mexico, obviously pandemic, and he plans to visit post pandemic when it's safe to travel again. And when he thinks of his journey, particularly to customer experience, Mexico has always had a huge tourism industry and so he thinks that his customer service experience journey began early on. It's common when one visits a Mexican resort, or even a Mexican corner. That actually the person on the other side of the car will usually say to you, it's my pleasure to serve you. And that's always stuck with him since a very early age.
He also thinks that our journey begins early on for all of us, no matter where we come from, or what we do now as adults. What he means by that is, all of us had always had an internal customer experience journey, even from the time we were children at a very early age, think of the relationship we have with our parents early on, and the experience that we provided them and the experiences that they provided us. And he thinks that translates well into the working world. His customer experience relates to achieving little win scenarios every day in his interactions with both their internal and external customers. As you can see by his bio, it's been a long journey so far, and one that he looks forward to continuing on for many, many years to come both personally and professionally.
What is TELUS International
Albert shared that TELUS International designs, builds and delivers next generation digital solutions which enhance your customer experience and many of their customers are customers that you actually deal with your daily life, whether you're using some of the world's largest search engines, or using some of the world's largest phone manufacturers, or you're using even to log on to some of your social media apps, that's what they do. They help a lot of those brands design and build the next generation digital solution. They also help them support the full lifecycle of clients’ digital transformation training, and they enable them to move quickly through these next generation of technologies that come up just about every day.
And the desired outcome for them (TELUS) is to make sure that they are a solid extension of those brands that they support. They have solutions and capabilities that expand the digital strategy, they're also quite innovative, and they do a lot of consulting with them as well when it comes to transforming their own journey. Think of companies that are trying to design autonomous vehicles, they will work with those companies to help them make sure that they have a product that will be intuitive, and that they will have a product that can be supported both remotely inshore and onshore.
Me: Okay, can you give us an example of maybe a company that you've worked with. I see here on the website that you work in industries such as Communications and Media, Healthcare, Tech and Games, eCommerce, and FinTech and Travel and Hospitality. So maybe pick one of those industries and just give us an example of how it is that you are transforming something that you're helping that client to achieve.
Albert stated that for your Canadian audience the named TELUS will be very familiar. And so that's actually one of their own internal customers, they actually help TELUS with all of its coding programming and networking, as well as support, and they have several employees around the world, including in Canada who will help the TELUS Corporation as well as TELUS customers in Canada, make sure that they have the daily communication through their network, make sure that the daily entertainment to their network and more importantly, make sure that their customers have the ability to stay connected, doing the things that they love most, to those that they love most.
Tips on Recruiting and Retaining the Right People
Me: So you focus a lot as your bio says, you're responsible for the entire HR suite of services, including Talent Acquisition and People Analytics. Customer service is all about people. I know, for example, in Jamaica, one of the big things that my customers complain about is getting the right persons and keeping them in your organization. So maybe could you share with us maybe one or two things that you think persons that would be in that role? Because you'd have a lot of persons who listen to this podcast who they may be the business owner, but they also wear the hat off recruiter or HR person for their company, because they're not big enough to have a natural HR department. So what are some things that you think they would need to be considering to ensure that you're getting the right people and retaining them?
Albert shared that if you're lucky enough to run and operation where you can make all the decisions yourself, he thinks that's actually quite good. Bigger is not always better and bigger is not always faster, it does usually mean that you have quite a bit of resources available to you. But sometimes the decision tree is a little bit bigger.
But if you are in charge of selecting your own talent, and being the decision maker, he thinks selection has to be well done before you think of retention and engagement. What he means by that is, make sure that you're clear with your candidates, what they can expect by working with you, and make sure that they're clear with you what you can expect by working with them. Because like any other relationship, the more transparent and the more honest that we are at the beginning of that relationship, that bigger likelihood for success that we will have in nurturing that relationship. And so, if once you get them in the door, and it's very important that at that point that you both listen to each other, that you both help solve solutions for each other.
One of the benefits he thinks of a smaller organization is that they tend to be more flexible and more nimble, as a beginner, if you have that ability to be much, much more open to flexibility of somebody's schedule, and spend a lot more time with them face to face, because again, the bigger you get, the less time unfortunately that you will have as a leader and as a direct report of yours to spend time with each other because naturally the work becomes larger in scope.
He thinks if you select the right person, if they select you as the right employer, or if you're transparent at the beginning of that selection process, and then once you start working together if you're open and honest with each other and listen to each other's needs you can solve together and he thinks that will help you select and retain that available talent so that when you're running an organization of 5 people or 500 people or 50,000 people, he thinks both can be achieved as far as the right selection and the right intension.
How to Keep People Motivated?
Me: It's been a very unusual period, of course because the world is going through a pandemic. Could you share with us just based on your experience? Because you've indicated that you're operating quite a few countries across the world. How have you seen organizations really adapt or adjust accordingly based on what's happening in terms of just keeping people motivated, especially seeing that you're managing people across different countries, every country is dealing with the pandemic differently. How has that been for your organization?
Albert stated that we are literally weeks away from when the pandemic was first declared, depending on the country you live in, most people declare the pandemic, the week of March 12 and then most everyone declared, the week of March 19 for the United States where he lives it was March 19, when they pretty much went on lockdown.
And so, he thinks there have been a few stages to the pandemic in the way that organizations have dealt with it. Early on from March through mid April, he thinks most of the organizations were in denial that this was going to be more than just a couple of weeks. And so, he thinks the way that we adjusted for that was okay, let's just take a wait and see attitude and see what happens. And then as we realized that more and more countries went into lockdown, and the pandemic started to spread, we quickly had to figure out a way to really embrace the remote work environment, not just for employees, but for customers.
And so the way that you think about shopping for milk changed, because maybe we're more apt to maybe have it delivered to your home versus having to go get it or the times that you went to go get milk was different than pre pandemic. And so, he thinks organizations realized in the second stage of the pandemic that we had to quickly embrace the remote workplace.
And for them at TELUS International, which is a company that is strongly built on what they call a cultural value chain, which is a proven formula where strong corporate culture and employee engagement equate to the ability to innovate. And they also achieve higher customer satisfaction, and they ultimately deliver stronger financial performance because of this culture value chain, they realized that they had a great cultural value chain in the work locations, but they had never done 50,000 employees be working remotely, literally overnight.
And so they made sure that they immediately took all the great knowledge that they had, and all the great experiences that they had on site culture validation and immediately started become virtual with it. And he thinks their team members appreciated that, their team members enjoyed the idea that, “Even though I'm not with my team, even though I'm not with my leader, and I'm working remote for I don't know how long, I appreciate that the company is still doing virtual yoga classes, I appreciate that the company is still doing remote financial wellness, I appreciate that the company is still doing mental health exercises, I appreciate that we're still having virtual recognitions, and reward.” So they had to take what they were very good at on site and immediately create a platform that they can leverage, again, the remote workplace.
And he thinks companies that already had a strong work culture on site, naturally, connect and navigate the virtual and deliver that strong culture virtually but organizations who had a tough time with building a strong culture on site, naturally, also have had a tough time delivering that virtual culture. And they're going up on a year now.
So, the good news is, it's never too late and there's plenty of good readings out there that will help an organization get better at this virtual remote environment. Because we now know that most of the biggest companies in the world is Facebook, or Google or Amazon and Microsoft have said that they don't intend to go back to the site till sometime in July. That's a great thing if you're a parent, then you've been able to spend time with your children and your family. But if you're an up and comer, and you want to be around the decision makers and you want to showcase your abilities and your talent, it's very difficult to do that in a remote environment. So, being home 100% at times is not the best thing for everybody, but being on site 100% times is that the best thing for everybody either, it just depends on the station you are within your career.
App, Website or Tool that Albert Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business
When asked about an online resource that he cannot live without in his business, Albert shared that he still likes to look at social media for what's fun and trendy, and the latest and greatest and he'll give you an example. He spent a few years in the retail industry and in the retail industry, a lot of big name designers often look to what was going on in the school yards, and the nightclubs, in the restaurants for inspiration, that's what the next season's big fashion thing was going to be. So he thinks that the audience that you're targeting is always the best measure of what it is that they're looking for. And as an example, they realized early on that their audience, the majority of the team members that they hire are in their 20s, they like the online social media presence, very different than even the millennials. The millennials like the playing remotely, like engaging remotely, but they still wanted to come see what your work location look like. The Generation Z is really much, much more comfortable with virtual all the time and so they really have been leveraging a lot of the social media apps to see what's the best way to reach their audience. And then they mimic some of the social media apps for even their internal communications, one of the platforms that they launched early in the pandemic is an internal social media platform called Cosmos.
And this again, mirror very much to what they know that their team members are comfortable with, it's very gamified. It's very about giving compliments, it's about posting comments, and pictures. And it worked wonderfully for them. And so, he still looks personally to a lot of what's going on in the world and in social media to try to gain inspiration for how to duplicate some of that.
Books That Have Had the Greatest Impact on Albert
When asked about books that have had the biggest impact, Albert shared that he didn't get a chance to tell Yanique this but he has an eight year old, his name is Dylan. And he's quite a lot of fun, he's their only son, he and his wife have been married for over 20 years. And so Dylan has been their shining light for the past 8 years. So while he read a lot of great professional books in his life, the last few years he has been reading a lot of children's books. And one children's book that he read that he wanted to share today. And he doesn't know if you ever read this book, but it's actually Drew Daywalt, The Legend of Rock Paper Scissors.
And the message he gets from this book is that rock is going through its surroundings, being the champion, nobody can beat him. And then scissors is going through its surroundings, also being the champion, nobody can beat them. And then paper is going through its surroundings being the champion, nobody can beat them.
And even though they're number one, and rock is beating everybody in the garden, and scissors is beating everybody in the in the kitchen, and paper is beating everybody in the home office, it wasn't till they venture out of their comfort zone looking for worthy challenge that they found fulfilment.
And that's kind of how I see the world of business today. It wasn't till we were pushed out of our comfort zone to really embrace the remote work environment. Now, some companies are further along than a lot of other companies. But when we were forced to come out of our comfort zone, and we were forced to immediately deploy at TELUS international, they have 35,000 team members around the world to work from home in a matter of three weeks. From the beginning of April to the middle of April they pretty much at 35,000 people working.
And so, he thinks that's how you grow a business, that's how you grow in life, you have to take yourself out of your comfort zone. And so, even though at TELUS International, they achieved an 86% engagement score in September as measured by an outside party called Consentrate.
They're not satisfied, that worked great in the garden, but they want to go into the kitchen and face the champion of the kitchen. So, he really quite enjoys The Legend of Rock Paper Scissors because again, the message to him is, don't stop challenging yourself, get out of your comfort zone and make sure that you take the time.
Even when you are beaten to recognize that you still find a good fight, and you have to get back up, and you have to do it again. And that's ultimately what Rock, Paper, Scissors do is when they fight each other, as you know, paper beats rock, but rock beats scissors and then scissors beats paper, and they just keep going. Because to them, it was never about the win, it was about the challenge.
What Albert is Really Excited About Now!
Albert shared that he finds excitement and inspiration in both his ‘work family’ and his ‘family family.’ And his eight-year-old right now is in a stage where everything is interesting, everything is important. He wants to do his very best, he as a test tomorrow on the 50 US Capitals. And then he also has to identify by geography where each state in the US is by name, and they have been working on that non-stop for last week and a half. And so he’s excited to see him achieve his result tomorrow. And like he told him, it's ultimately about the work you put in and if you put enough work in, if you really learned it, you'll be able to do really well.
On the work side, they have been automating quite a bit, even before the pandemic. Again, if you're going to be in 20 countries with 50,000 employees, you can't be in 20 places at once. So they have been really investing in automating their day to day activities. And what's exciting about that is the more they automate, the more free sub leaders do what they do best and that's lead people and support people. And he thinks at that point, both leader and employee benefit, because that means they get to spend more time with each other, they spend less time updating their personal data, they spend less time updating their performance, they spend less time manually checking the to do lists, because all that becomes automated. And they can spend more time coaching each other guiding each other and ultimately supporting the clients that they serve around the world.
Where Can We Find Albert Online
Website – www.telusinternational.com
Twitter – @TELUSint
Facebook – @TELUSInternational
Instagram - TELUS
Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Albert Uses
When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Albert shared that he does actually, and interestingly enough he still like to think that at some point, he doesn't know when, he’s hoping the experts are accurate when the experts say it's probably 2022 around this time that things will return to as normal as the new normal will be.
But even before the pandemic, for those of us that have been around long enough, before the pandemic, if you remember, we had the great recession of 2008 that was nowhere near a health risk, but it was certainly an economic risk, and it put a lot of friends and family out of work and it made a lot of people lose their homes and so that was a pretty bad time.
But we recovered and we came out of a very strong and if you remember before that time, we had the terrorist attacks of 2001 so that created an economic shock wave. So it almost always seems like in some point in our lifetime, there's going to be some adversity. And so, but he also knows that almost always we seem to come out of it even stronger as a society than we have before. So he still loves Mark Twain's quote about, “Dance like nobody's watching, love like you've never been hurt, sing like nobody's listening and live like it's heaven on earth.”
Me: Live like it's heaven on earth. I like that one Albert, really fun, light, festive but kind of reminds you of the important things in life not to take ourselves too seriously.
Albert stated that just like they talked about, life is a journey. And like he said, three major world impacting issues in the last 21 years. But, there is always tomorrow and he thinks we have to, whether you think the glass is half full or half empty, he thinks what matters is that you fill it up.
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Blanca Cobb is an internationally recognized body language expert who’s been featured on national television shows such as the Steve Harvey Show, TODAY Show, Megyn Kelly TODAY, Dr. Oz, Dr. Drew, CNN, Face the Truth, The Doctors to name a few as well as publications around the world, such as Cosmopolitan, Us Weekly, Elite Daily, Business Insider, Elle, Daily Mail among others. Blanca shares her expertise weekly on a CBS affiliate, WFMY News 2, in North Carolina.
When it comes to corporate America, Blanca’s in the relationship business. Her approach to sales is the relationship dynamics between sales professionals and their clients. It's what isn't said, but seen that can either drive or stall the sales process. Blanca also turns professionals into rock stars on camera, whether you're booked for a TV segment, or making your own videos. She says to not let the small screen of the virtual world fool you, nonverbal communication is equally important on video calls and on camera when you're making videos to promote yourself, your products, your services and your company.
Questions
Highlights
Blanca’s Journey
Me: So could you share a little bit about what is a body language expert, as I mentioned to you when I came into the Clubhouse room, and I was so eagerly excited when we connected again. I saw you on a TV show maybe a year and a half ago, actually, when I checked my archives, the invitation I had sent to you was from 2019 and for whatever reason, we just didn't get to synchronize our schedules and connect. And I was like this lady, I need to interview her because I talk about body language so much in my customer service trainings so I couldn't believe there was a body language expert out there, somebody who could now validate all of what I've been saying.
Could you tell us a little bit about what is being a body language expert entail? And where does body language even extend to? We see it a lot in customer service and I heard a lot about sales in your bio, but just tell us about what different industries and careers does body language impact? Does it impact everyone? And is it a cultural thing? Just share a little bit about how you got into it? And who does it really impact the most?
Blanca shared that how she got into it is a long story but she’ll make it short. When she was a little girl, she was always watching body language, but she didn't know what she was doing. So she didn't have a very happy childhood, she was an abused little girl and what she was doing is, she was always watching for signs of when the next beating was going to happen.
And those signs were listening to changes in the tone of voice, watching hand movements, just looking at body posture, facial expression, it even got down to footsteps walking down a hall, where I could tell whether this person was happy or not happy, and what could possibly happen.
So paying attention and as you might imagine, she really didn't know who she could trust growing up and other things happened to her as a child also. And so then, when she grew up, she knew she wanted to go into a helping profession and she ended up getting a Master's Degree in Psychology and she has studied with heavy hitters, very well respected professionals in the non-verbal world, as well as a detecting deception world. And she has just combined the two and voila, here she is.
So the second part of the question is impact. And industry, every single industry, every facet of life, no matter if it's a personal or professional relationship and acquaintance, somebody you meet at the bus stop or in the grocery store, it's about body language.
When you go into a store and you're both reaching for the same item, you're using body language, you're trying to figure out, well, can I grab this or does that person have it first?
So it's everything. When you're on a telephone, when you just hear voice, how that person is talking, how they're projecting their voice. Do they sound happy?
Do they sound confused? Do they sound angry?
It's everything and everywhere body language touches. You cannot communicate without some level of nonverbal communication. And if you think about it, even babies when they come out of the womb, they do not know how to talk, it takes a while for children to learn how to talk, however they're communicating, they're communicating through their cries and they stop crying when parents attend to their needs, this is done non-verbally, this isn't done with words. So it's just innate, it's part of who we are.
Keys for Mastering Customer Experience When Using Body Language
Me: So basically, body language affects everyone. Now, let’s bring it to customer service Blanca, because as you know, our audience is all about improving the quality of their customers’ experience. People have a lot of nuances, body language refers to your facial expressions, as you mentioned, your walk, your hand gesticulations, body movements, anything that can definitely send a signal to someone else that would indicate whether their intention for you or against you. And so, in the Caribbean, I don't know if you've been to the Caribbean before, but in Jamaica, for sure, we're extremely expressive people and we have this saying locally that says, “It's not what you say, but it's how you say it.” And that comes over in your body language and your facial expressions, and all that kind of stuff. But if you really want to be someone who masters body language, especially if you're a customer facing person, what are some key things that you would need to do to ensure that when people come into your presence, even before you speak, they feel welcomed?
Blanca stated that that's a great question. So she will start with that part first. It's your body language, because people are picking up your vibes.
So let's say you're in a bad mood that day, and then you try to fake it, you might not get away with it as well as you think you can. Because what happens is your body will leak an emotion, you try to hide not feeling well, or just not being into work that day.
But people are going to be able to see some type of leakage in your face and what she’s talking about are micro expressions. So this is with an involuntary facial expression that you make when you're trying to hide how you're really feeling but your body, your face is going to leak the true emotion.
And these micro expressions occur within like 150 seconds, so like within a blink of an eye and people, they might not be able to recognize exactly what they saw but they're going to sense that, they're going intuit it, and they're going to say, “Hmm, this person isn't quite as happy, maybe I don't want to talk to them, I'm going to talk to a different customer service rep.”
So you have to pay attention to your own body language. So you want to have open body language, so what that means is you don't want to stand behind a counter, you stand behind a counter, you actually have a physical object between you and the other person. So subconsciously, people are going to see that as an obstacle, it's so much better when you walk around the counter, and it's you and that person face to face and you have a nice big smile on your faces, you're welcoming them, or asking them how you might be able to help them, you want to make sure that your hands are free, you're not holding any objects when you're initially meeting somebody.
And when you're talking, you want to have your hands out in front of you and present, you want your palms up, when you have your palms up, you're sending a nonverbal message that you're being friendly, you're being straightforward, you've got nothing to hide, because people can see your palms. And then you want to make sure that your body is facing towards them and this includes your feet, your feet takes you in the direction where you want to go. If your feet are facing towards the customer, that's very welcoming, if your feet are slightly turned either to the right or the left, even though you might have your upper body facing the person, they're still going to perceive that you're not quite into that interaction.
Me: So you want to be aware of how you're positioned. Do you think culture impacts how people just manage their body language or how they interact?
Blanca stated absolutely yes. There are cultural differences everywhere because like Yanique was saying in Jamaica, there's a certain phrase that you use, I think you said, it isn't what you say, but how you say it. Or phrasing here.
So, let's say there's somebody from a different country, but that's not as common there. So right there, you have a cultural difference, it doesn't make one right and the other wrong, it just makes it that it's different. And in order to understand people and get on people's level, you have to adapt to what they're showing you and you have to adapt to their culture, that doesn't mean you need to become a cultural expert in their country or their culture. But what it does mean is that you need to have some sensitivity. So the best way to handle this when you're not sure of cultural differences is to meet the person where they are. What this means is, she gives a good example.
What this means is, let's say their energy level or their animation, or their excitement is at a level 3, but you're at a level 9, there's a big difference there from a 3 to a 9, so if you come in at a 9 where you're like really excited, “Hey, it's so good to see you, I'm so glad you walked into the store, Baba, Baba Baba.” And they come in a little lower key, that's going to be a turnoff to them.
She likes to make these analogies to dating. So it's like if somebody comes across too strong, too much, then you pull back, you're like, “Whoa, where's this coming from? This is too much too soon, too fast.” So that's why you adapt to the same level that they are, the level three and the example that she’s giving and then together you can move up that scale. Because what that means is that you have the same energy level, and the same tone of voice and mannerisms as them, go down to the level 3. And then as they get comfortable, and as they start to get to know you and feel comfortable in the interaction, then you can move up together, but it's something that's done simultaneously and it comes across more natural, and it's very sensitive to where they are, and then they feel understood. And when people feel understood and validated, guess what? They end up liking you more.
Me: Agreed. In terms of the example you gave just now, I remember I was watching a video a few years ago, and there was a term that they use called mirroring, would the example you gave in terms of matching that person as to where they are be similar to mirroring?
Blanca stated that it is. And so mirroring, it's essentially the same thing, she’s just use an example instead of using the word mirroring. So she'll give you specific examples of mirroring. So let's say you're talking to somebody, and you notice that they adjust their watch. So then a few seconds later, you don't want to do it immediately, but a few seconds later, then you might adjust the sleeve of your shirt. So it's that similarity. And the reason mirroring works so well, is because and she always say this, “Like, likes, like.” Saying that again, “Like, likes, like.” What that means is people like people who are similar to them. And so, when people feel that you're similar to them, and it's what she was talking about earlier, when they feel like you get them, you understand them, you validate them, and they can't help but like you, it makes them feel good. It makes them feel like there's a commonality between the two of you.
So mirroring absolutely does work. So for example, let me give another example. Let's say they lean on the counter, then you want to wait a few seconds and then you might want to lean on a chair, if a chairs nearby if you're standing up. But the thing as she keeps talking about that timing, you want to wait a few seconds, because if it's like they do something, you do something immediately after, that comes across as creepy, and you don't want to come across as creepy and inauthentic and that's why you wait a few seconds and someone might go, “Wait a second Blanca, you're talking about creepy and inauthentic. If I'm mirroring isn't that action really creepy and inauthentic?” No, it isn’t, at first it's going to feel that way but you have to think about your intent, your intent is to make this person feel comfortable, your intent is to establish rapport with this person, your intent is to help develop trust in this customer service situation. So if the intent is pure, then it isn't creepy or inauthentic, it might feel that way at first. So it's like with any skill, the more you do it, the better you get, the more comfortable you are with it.
Body Language – The Most Important and Greatest Impact on an Interaction
Me: So Blanca we spoke about just how it is that you can adjust yourself as it relates to body language. In terms of let's say, for example, you are trying to improve on your body language. What do you think of all the different components, you would have mentioned examples of hand gesticulations, walking, how you move your hands, facial expression, if you were to maybe give a weighting to the different types of body language, which do you think is the most important and can have the greatest impact on an interaction?
Blanca stated that this is a fabulous question, and it isn't one over the other, it's all of them in unison. Because if you think about it, our body works together, our muscles are all interconnected in our body, even though you may not realize it. You might have a shoulder pain that's really connected to a lower back problem. All muscles are connected. So it's the same thing with body language. If you want to just focus on facial expressions, and you want to come across as more engaging and happy so you have a smile on your face but then you have tension in your shoulders, that’s a disconnect, that’s not going work.
People are going to think that face that you're making of being happy, it's fake and phoney, you know what they're going to focus on the tension in your shoulders. People are going to believe the negative before they believe the positive. That's why it all needs to work together as a symphony of body language.
Me: So then, in order for it to work as a symphony, what are some of the things that you would need to do maybe exercise, eat properly, surround yourself with positive things, do those things help to enhance your body language in a positive way?
Blanca stated that it helped enhance you as a person because it keeps you healthy, it keeps your energy up when you're taking care of your body, so that helps exude positive body language. The best thing that you can do is pay attention to your own body language and although we do not walk around with a mirror with us, and we can look at ourselves all the time when we're interacting, what you do have is how somebody responds to you, that's your mirror. So, if you think you're actually being happy, and you're being engaging, and you're being friendly, but yet somebody isn't responding, and kind, then you have to think a couple of things. Is it the vibe that you're putting out? Or maybe there's something that's off for them in that given moment? So you have to think about that.
And another tip that she would have for people is to record yourself, use a camera, you can use your phone, put it off to the side, have a conversation, practice a pitch, practice how you might interact with somebody and then go back and watch it. Now, the only problem with that when you're doing it by yourself, you might come across a little stiff or awkward on film, or on camera, because you're really talking to yourself, so then practice with a friend or family member or somebody. So that way, it's more of a real interaction and then you can go ahead and eliminate any awkwardness or stiffness that you might see on the replay.
Me: And this would be applicable for salespeople as well.
Blanca agreed. Yes, for anybody when you're dealing with the public, speakers, before you go on stage you practice and video, that's how she coaches people who want to be speakers. She’s evaluating them, pointing out what they're doing great, areas that they need to work on. And then she gives them suggestions on how to make themselves better, but then they also see themselves and they do self-evaluation, that's really important to be self-aware of yourself. Seemingly important. That gives you insight and then you'll see things that you don't even realize about yourself, because we don't walk around with a mirror, staring at ourselves all the time. The video really helps.
Me: And it's good too, because one of the recommendations I give to participants, especially those who has to deal with customers daily, but they need to remember to smile and they have the ability to afford having a mirror at their desk, I recommend, especially if they're working our call centre, for example, that they put a mirror at their desk that helps to remind them that for each caller, they need to maintain a pleasant countenance or at least sound welcoming enough, because you may come off the phone with someone who just really rattled you completely. But it doesn't mean that that energy from that telephone call should transfer into the next call because that person doesn't know what you're coming out of and they're expecting somebody welcoming and approachable.
Blanca agreed. Absolutely and she’s glad that Yanique brought that up because if there is a bad call, and let's say they're going to be jumping on the next call, what they should do is stand up, move around, shake it off, like physically shake it off even if they have a next call coming in, then sit in the chair, and just move because what you're doing is you're getting out of that negative energy that you're feeling at the moment.
It's a way just to make it dissipate, just to make it go away before you jump on the next call. And the idea of the mirror is perfect, particularly when you have a tough call, watch yourself because what happens is you may not even realize that you're rolling your eyes as you're helping the person. You may not realize that you're giving a look of disgust and disgust as if you can imagine smelling something that's like rotting that just smells bad, like super bad, like diarrhoea or vomit and your nose automatically crinkles, that is a look of disgust. And a lot of people will do that.
Another facial expression people make that you can see yourself in it and if you're not in a very pleasant conversation with somebody and you're watching yourself in the mirror, the look of contempt. And the look of contempt is the only facial expression that's unilateral that occurred on one side. And what it looks like is just the corner, one corner of your mouth, it slightly goes up and what that means is moral superiority.
So imagine if you know you're right, as the customer service rep and this person who you're talking to, a customer is really giving you a hard time, you might make that look of contempt and that is something that you should be aware of. And the reason it's so important, is because the negativity that you're feeling in this conversation can carry over to the next person. And also, if this is how you respond when someone's giving you a hard time or when something isn't going well, then you're going to be transferring that body language, those facial expressions when you're meeting someone in real life and then they can really see it.
App, Website or Tool that Blanca Absolutely Can’t Live Without in Her Business
When asked about online resources that she can’t live without in her business, Blanca stated that it's Clubhouse. So for those who are not familiar with Clubhouse, it's only available right now for iOS. This is an audio app, this is where you can connect with people and make connections. And you are actually talking, you're in a room with a lot of other people from all around the world that have similar interests, or people who are learning about a new topic and you're talking just like you and I are talking right now, it's fascinating. She cannot tell you how many people she has met that she would never have met otherwise. She lives on the east coast in the United States. So people from the west coast all the way to abroad, it is fascinating. She loves it. She absolutely loves it, cannot imagine not having that right now.
This is how she and Yanique reconnected, through the Clubhouse app. True.
Me: Very true. It's a really, really good app. But it's been my experience that you have to manage yourself with it because it can run away and your day gets caught up in Clubhouse and you don't actually achieve your goals. So one of the things I've done to manage myself with is I've turned off notifications, because it can be extremely distracting. Every time there's a new room that opens up and it's they're notifying my phone and I'm doing something and I stop and I go, “Oh, this topic looks interesting.” And then you just get derailed completely. But I do agree with you, it's a wonderful application, whoever was the brainchild of it in terms of having audio where people could go in and have live conversations, you can definitely learn and gain a lot of knowledge and insight and as you said, connect with people who you'd have never had the opportunity to connect with otherwise.
Books That Have Had the Greatest Impact on Blanca
When asked about books that have the biggest impact, Blanca shared that for her, it's not a particular book, it is the genre of the book. So for example, this is a particular book Never Split the Difference: Negotiating As If Your Life Depended On It by Chris Voss is an excellent book. He is a former FBI, a hostage negotiator and he has made a book or written a book I should say, about how to negotiate and she loves it because it's a skill that we all need. So for genres for her, it's like understanding people. So psychological books that really help you understand people and help you understand yourself. She thinks that is such an important skill to have because we will always have people in our lives, we will have people who come into our lives and stay and we will have people who leave our lives. But every touchpoint, every person who we have a relationship whether it's personal or professional, makes an impact on us. And we can learn from every one of those interactions and relationships. And so, that's why she goes back to the genre. So there isn't a particular book, it's just the subject.
What Blanca is Really Excited About Now!
Blanca stated that she is really excited to share that she is putting the polishing touches on an ebook, Emotions Behind the Mask is the title of this ebook because everyone is wearing masks, how do you read facial expressions when the majority of your face is covered by a mask?
So it's important because we're going to continue to wear a mask and it looks like it might be until the next year into 2022. But how can you still make a connection? How can you still understand some nonverbals of somebody else in our social distancing world? That is so important nonverbal communication. So she’s super excited about that.
And then she has created a programme how to help people be rock stars on camera, whether they're booked for a TV segment, or whether they're creating their own videos for video marketing, for themselves, their products, their services or their company. So those are two big things that she has going that she loves. She’s very passionate about people having better lives.
Again, going back to the beginning of the conversation, she didn't have a very happy childhood or adolescence. And so it's important for her that people have healthy relationships, that they can get along and know who to trust and who has their back. People need happiness, part of your happiness in life are the people who you select to be in your life and that's where she can make a big difference for people.
Where Can We Find Blanca Online
Website – www.blancacobb.com
Clubhouse – Blanca Cobb
Instagram – @blancacobb
Facebook – Blanca Cobb
Twitter – @BlancaCobb
YouTube – Blanca Cobb
Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Blanca Uses
When asked about a quote or saying that she tends to revert to, Blanca shared, “You're stronger than you know.”
In times when we have extreme stress, when we just rethink why am I even getting up in the morning because it's going to be the same day nothing has changed, you have a lot of stress, you have children or spouses who are counting on you, or you're not sure what's going to happen with your job. When you feel like you just want to get into the corner and cry, that's where you have to really pull deep within yourself and understand you're stronger than you know, get out of bed. You can do this, even when you feel the whole world is against you. You're stronger than you know.
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Links
The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience
Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”
The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty.
This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately!
This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others.
Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!
Greg Kihlström Show Notes
Greg Kihlström is a best-selling author, speaker and entrepreneur. He is currently CEO and Co-Founder at CarrierGig, after selling his award-winning digital experience agency Carousel30 in 2017. He has worked with some of the world's top brands, including AOL, Choice Hotels, Coca Cola, Dell, FedEx, GEICO, Marriott International, MTV, Starbucks, Toyota and VMware. He currently serves on the University of Richmond's Customer Experience Advisory Board, was the founding Chair of the American Advertising Federation's National Innovation Committee, and served on the Virginia Tech Pamplin College of Business Marketing Mentorship Advisory Board.
Greg's newest book, The Agile Workforce (2021) explores the current and future state of the workforce and envisions a world where individuals thrive in a new world of work opportunities enabled by technology, decentralization and a shift in the power dynamics between employers and employees. His previous book, The Center of Experience (2020) talks about how customers and employee experiences can be operationalized into a cohesive brand experience.
Questions
Highlights
Greg’s Journey
Greg shared that he has played a few different roles over his career and depending on how you look at it, he has been a freelancer and employee, entrepreneur, executive, so on and so forth. Also, he has played roles in creative marketing technology and what he has tried to do throughout his career, some of that is he likes to learn new things and so he constantly tries to challenge himself to learn them. But some of it also is he thrive when he’s able to find connections between whether it's different disciplines or industries or things like that. And so, he has always just tried, at first it wasn't so intentional, he'll confess but towards getting a few years down in his career, it started to become more intentional that he always wanted to kind of push himself and be a little bit uncomfortable. If he was too comfortable, it meant that he wasn't learning enough, and he wasn't pushing himself to do more than he was currently doing.
So, he started a marketing agency, his first job was working at a start-up, he became head of product design there back in the early 2000s, started a marketing agency that he grew and eventually sold about 3 years ago, did a lot in the digital experience space and for a number of those brands that was mentioned, and also quite focused in the financial services industry towards the end before I sold it. And then after that really got more and more involved in the employee experience, leadership’s role in the employee experience, and HR technology and where he currently is, Careergig really flowed pretty naturally through that where he just kept seeing more and more emphasis being placed on the freelance economy, the gig economy, but there was a lot of things that weren't really being solved for. And so, he just found a new challenge to try to solve.
About the Book – The Agile Workforce and Who Can Benefit From An Agile Workforce
Me: So your book, agility is one of those words that we've been hearing bouncing around for quite a few years now. But I definitely have heard it way more since the pandemic. Could you tell us a little bit about what the book is about? Who is it for? How will it help organizations? Is it geared towards a particular industry? and How can any company or is it specific to an industry in terms of benefiting from an agile workforce?
Greg shared that it's quite broad in scope as far as industry goes. So, The Agile Workforce: Automation, Decentralization, and Their Role in the Future Workforce, it's part of a series of books that he has written on the topic of agility in business. And so, he started out focused more on the branding and marketing aspect and how to be more agile in those types of approaches and it's over time he also started a podcast called The Agile World, you can see a theme developing here. He is four books in for this series and have a podcast all talking about how do we position ourselves to be adaptive and resilient in a constantly changing world, and there's recent events with the pandemic, certainly draw attention to the need for that. But it's always been the case that we need that, we need to be agile.
So, the latest book, The Agile Workforce is really talking about this growing independent workforce where 10 years ago was really the birth of what we know as the gig economy, things like Uber and Lyft, drivers, and delivery doordash, all of those types of things really kind of grew out of the 2009 financial crisis where there were a lot of jobs kind of went away, full time jobs, there's a lot of disenchantment with getting another full time job when you could easily be laid off again at the signs of the next crisis, we're seeing that now 10 years later.
We're seeing that now in different spaces of lots of individuals needing to rely on companies to employ them, certainly the companies are the ones hiring them, but not necessarily, a lot of individuals are not necessarily keen to go back to a full time job when we've all been kind of sold on full time jobs are the source of stability, and you get your benefits and your retirement and all this stuff. And yet, we've seen it slowly go away over the years and now, he thinks some of those things are more myth than reality. And so you have this growing independent workforce that wants the freedom and flexibility to work when they want, how they want, earn as much or as little as they want.
But they need help as far as some of that, some of that the learning that they get from a company or some of the benefits like he mentioned, like health, everything from health insurance to life, disability, all of that stuff. So there's a challenge right now and there's a number of ways to solve it. His company Careergig is solving it in one way but there's some growing needs and opportunities.
Principles To Be Guided By In Order To Be Really Agile
Me: Based on your experience, because as you said, it's a theme and you've definitely found a way to position yourself as a subject matter expert in the area, ensuring that you have a podcast and then these different books that support the whole agile mindset. Could you maybe share with us based on your experience and your exposure around this topic maybe two or three principles that businesses must be guided by in order to be really agile? Or if they're just starting on this agile journey, what are two or three things that they need to really consider?
Greg shared that he thinks a big one is that agility is something that needs to be embraced company wide.
So we've seen agile really has its roots in manufacturing and software development, so we see a lot of most software development teams are using agile, you might hear things about Sprint's and Scrum masters and things like that.
There's a very formal agile methodology that teams like that are using, he uses agile in a broader sense of the term really, because some of those things apply a little bit less directly to other areas.
But in order for a company to be agile, everybody's got to be bought into it. And that's top down, that's leaders embracing new ways of doing things, that's areas of companies that traditionally have not been as agile, whether that's formal agile, or big ‘A’ agile or small ‘a’ agile as some people say.
HR departments, for instance, not traditionally the most agile and for good reason, they're taught to be very compliance focused and there's certain things that they need to always keep an eye on, but it's got to be company wide. So, that's definitely the first thing is just leaders need to embrace it and make sure that the entire company is adopting it.
He thinks the other part of this, and he goes into more depth in his book and it's kind of a theme of most of his books and writing is there needs to be more focus on individuals and individual needs.
And when you do that, it might sound counterproductive because the companies and the shareholders need to get their value but he believes there's a win-win when companies focus on making sure that individuals are happy, motivated, taking care of, that the companies reap huge benefits.
When an employee's more motivated, they are more open to change, they're more open to add activity, all of those types of things. So, it's sort of the inverse of the first point is like it's got to start top down from leaders really driving the change, but the change has to be driven almost thinking from the bottom up of what is it going to take for each individual to be more empowered and have more of what they need? And then they're going to be loyal, they're going to do what they can to support the company, if you think like that.
Digital Experience the New Normal or Face to Face Experience
Me: As it relates to digital experience, basically, we're in this space now, where everybody is pretty much online. If you're not online, I suppose you're missing out. People definitely have moved their businesses or some parts of their business to online, how do you think we're going to adjust after hopefully, things go back to what we used to think was normal in terms of that digital space, will that trend continue? Or do you think people would want to return back to more face to face kind of experiences?
Greg stated that there's always a desire, there's nostalgia. Everyone he thinks wants to return to some kind of things that they got used to, and everything like that. And in many cases, there are certain kinds of businesses, restaurants, hotels, all those things where you really can't recreate some of those experiences online, much as delivery as had a lot of support from restaurants for instance. But he does think that there has been enough time gone by just with the pandemic and things are not quite over yet. There's positive signs of progress and everything like that, but there's enough time has passed where real habits have been formed. So, if this was a 30-day thing, then people tend to go back to some sort of status or whatever. But months and months have gone by in which habits have been formed, new ways, brains have been rewired, let's just say for neuro scientist or whatever, but it's like new patterns in our brains have been created, let's just put it that way where Zoom is like a normal thing, as opposed to kind of an awkward like, “Oh, we can't get everybody in the conference room,” like Zoom meetings are now normal and stuff like that.
So, he thinks where possible, there is going to be a return to that. But he thinks the positive side of all of this, we've learned to do things a lot more efficiently in many ways. He personally spent hours and hours driving to meetings and doing all sorts of things when he had local things at least, spending all that time travelling where now, he gets on a Zoom call and it's easier and you learn how to connect with people in a different way, it's certainly different. But he thinks that we can embrace some of the efficiencies that we've learned how to do and he thinks it's forced technology to become better.
And it was inevitable that it was going to happen but all these tools that we use, it's forced some other things, some innovation in other areas that we're just kind of lagging. So, to answer the question, it's a mix and some things will go back, but he thinks some things may not and maybe that's for the better.
App, Website or Tool that Greg Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business
When asked about an online resource that he cannot live without in his business, Greg shared that he thinks it comes down to from a business standpoint, he thinks it just comes down to analytics and having a good way to measure and get feedback.
So, if he were to choose one, that might be a little bit tough, but his company, it's an online platform. And so, using tools like Google Analytics and their CRM and stuff like that, they just couldn't, they are completely dependent on the feedback that they get from their customers. And because part of their customer base is really a volume base, they can't simply talk to a statistically significant sample on a regular basis. So, really relying on those analytics helps them make a better product and a better company.
Books That Have Had the Greatest Impact on Greg
When asked about books that have had the biggest impact, Greg shared that one that immediately comes to mind is, it's called The Hard Thing About Hard Things: Building a Business When There Are No Easy Answers and by Ben Horowitz. And Careergig is not his first company that he started, but it's his first start-up, so product based company. And just some of the stories, he thinks the idea that there isn't a prescriptive set of guidance for every single problem that a leader is going to face.
And so, just kind of embracing that kind of like what he was saying earlier of like, you've got to just embrace being uncomfortable and it doesn't mean you have to love it, he doesn't think anyone loves being uncomfortable, but you have to be comfortable with that idea that if you're not uncomfortable, then there might be other problems going on, it's not just a relief. So, he thought that was a refreshing take.
What Greg is Really Excited About Now!
Greg shared that he has always got another book in the works. So, The Agile Workforce is actually his seventh book. And so, he just kind of set a personal goal to finish one a year, it keeps him learning.
It's actually one of the biggest ways that he himself learn is just doing research for his own writing and it forces him to talk to people in targeted conversations and stuff like that.
So, he just released another book, but he’s already on to the next one, which is going to focus a lot more on leadership's role and agility and things like that. So, he has talked with a number of leaders of large organizations already, interviewed them for his podcast, other things like that, and going to be compiling things into another book. And hopefully, maybe in a year's time he can join the show again and share.
Where Can We Find Greg Online
LinkedIn – Greg Kihlström
Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Greg Uses
When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Greg shared that he does and he doesn’t know who it can be attributed to, but it's probably gotten him out of trouble. And it's a hypothetical, because you never know what the other side of the decision is. But it's, “Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.”
And so, he often refers to that and tell his employees or partners or whatever to think on that. And sometimes you still go out and do it and sometimes you don't, but it's something to consider.
Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest
Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners
Links
The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience
Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”
The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty.
This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately!
This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others.
Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!
Kris Rudeegraap is the co-founder and CEO of Sendoso, the leading Sending Platform. Kris has more than a decade of sales experience and has spent time at Talkdesk, Yapstone, and Piqora. During that time, he discovered that creating meaningful engagement through direct mail and gifting was an effective way to drive demand and increase sales - which helped inspire the idea for Sendoso. Kris is a California native and CSU-Chico alum currently residing in the Bay Area.
Questions
Highlights
Kris’ Journey
Kris shared that before starting Sendoso, he spent about 10 years in software sales in San Francisco. And so, he was really trying to break into new accounts, send emails to prospects, and really saw that there was a lot of digital noise and email was a hard channel to be super personalized.
And so, that's really where he decided to start sending out handwritten notes and he'd send little gifts, he'd send little packages with like company swag and all that stuff was really great, it was just super hard to do and very manual and very time consuming.
And so, he dreamed up this idea of a sending platform where you can click and send a button inside of tools like Salesforce or HubSpot or other tools. And then behind the scenes, it would do all the fulfillment and all the hard work for him.
And so that was the original idea and that's what inspired him to start Sendoso about 5 years ago, and really a sending platform is a couple components. One is it allows you to send out really anything and everything, corporate gifts, their direct mail, their company swag, there could be flowers, cookies, ice cream, gift cards, digital experiences, you name it, they can send it. There's also team management and budgets, there's integrations, there's fulfillment all under one platform.
Me: Sounds good. So a big part of what Sendoso does are, what you do is sales?
Kris shared that sales, that's how he got started and a lot of their customers are using them for sales. But they also have a good amount of companies using them for post sales. So customer service, customer success, marketing, and even HR too.
Tips on How Salespeople Can Retain Their Customers
Me: So what I like to find out from you is could you share with us just based on your experience, and also your business as an entrepreneur and a leader. What are maybe one, two or three things that you think salespeople need to do to retain their customers? So I know sales is about getting new customers, but how do you ensure that you retain your existing customers? How do you have that relationship, the customer relationship management component? Maybe what are two or three things that you think is critical based on your experience?
Kris shared that he'd say one is really being human and building rapport and think about it as not a business to business, but a business to a human and how do you build that relationship.
Two is really just getting creative with how you engage folks. So not just using email, but using other means to build that relationship.
And he thinks the third is really leading with empathy and putting yourself in your buyer’s shoes, and really encouraging authenticity and really understanding what the buyer really needs.
How to Build on Being More Empathetic as a Human
Me: Okay, so those are three really good points. Now, let's say for example, you're dealing with sales reps that don't know how to exercise empathy. So as a Customer Service Trainer, I have found based on research and experience that empathy is not one of those skills that you learn when you're growing up, it's really a skill that you develop as you get older, as you get to understand yourself, as you get to understand emotions in other people. But some people just still are not able to exercise empathy to its fullest extent. What are maybe one or two things you think that somebody could do to enhance or build on that skill? How can you build on being more empathetic as a human?
Kris shared that he would say one is finding training and learning courses, so going out of your way to find ways that you can really learn about how to be more empathetic and kind of study and learn and kind of take what you've learned and start practicing that. He'd say that's the first thing is really going out of your way to learn more.
And then he thinks the second is, people might not be as empathetic in business, he thinks a lot of people are naturally maybe empathetic in their home life and maybe understanding what are those key things you're doing in kind of your home, non-work life that could be empathetic, and how could you translate that into more business like environments.
Me: That's a good one. Because it's the same skill, same behaviour, you're exercising in a personal environment so you need to just transfer that into a professional environment so that you can really understand where the other person is coming from.
How Companies Can Leverage and Adapt Collaboration Software And Use it to Their Advantage
Me: So a big part of customer experience also is understanding that we're in this space now where we have to be pivoting, I think that was a big word for 2020 and it's definitely come over into 2021. And just being able to be flexible using the different technologies that exist out there to serve our customers.
Agility is also something that a lot of organizations are looking to do with their teams. So could you give us maybe some recommendations as how companies can leverage more collaboration software and use it to their advantage?
And how can employees be open to adapt to this and be able to succeed, especially with something that they are not very comfortable with?
Kris stated that he thinks that to Yanique’s point, one is taking the time to really time block on your calendar to learn more.
We live in a world where people work, and maybe don't do enough in terms of like education or re-education, so he'd say purposefully putting time on your calendar for learning and development is key.
And being cognizant of that, say, “Hey, next week, I'm going to block two hours, and I'm going to learn this or I'm going to practice using this software,” which might sound like how do you have enough time to do that, but he thinks it's taking that time, it's almost like taking a step sideways to take 10 steps forward, versus kind of always being in an environment where you feel behind. So, he would say that is one scenario.
He'd say two is just maybe, depending on your level of leadership, really just the culture of the company, or the executives can be really driving this agility and so, he thinks it starts at the top. And really, if you can demonstrate agility at the top and really make that a key part of your company culture, it can really benefit everybody.
How To Inspire Your Team to Think Creatively
Me: Leadership is very important, I'm glad you touched on that just now in terms of getting people to really step up to the plate. So you have these teams and even though they're working from home, I've heard so many complaints where people complain that they're just exhausted, they're burnt out, literally, just between family, depending on what age the kids are, and then just keeping the home in order, and then being on all of these Zooms and Microsoft Team meetings constantly at your computer.
But then outside of those meetings, you have the actual work to get done and it's just a lot.
How as a leader in all of these that's happening, can you ensure that your team is thinking creatively?
They're thinking outside of the box?
How do you get to inspire them, especially when you're not in the same physical space with them?
How can you really get them motivated and pumped up that they are excited to come up with new ideas and innovative solutions to make the business move forward?
Kris shared that one thing that comes to mind is making sure that you are upfront about a flexible work life balance and right now it's harder than ever to be flexible, because you kind of live and work in the same room, so to speak.
And so, he thinks it's purposefully making sure people are stepping away, even if it's just a staycation and you're staying home, you just put your laptop away.
So, they really try to inspire that, they even have a twice a year employee bonus that if you take a vacation or a staycation, they'll give a $500 bonus each time to spend on that and so they're kind of paying their employees to take breaks and keep that flexible work life balance.
And so, he thinks that's one area, making sure you keep your work life balance strong so that it really keeps your mental state in a really good place.
Two, he'd say is like, how do you get creative or have more fun with some of your Zoom meetings and so, they've incorporate things like Zoom wine tasting events, or they've done like dinner making class over zoom and so they bring in special guests to some of these Zooms, and maybe change it up a little bit so it feels a little bit more unique, and adds a little bit of flair. So he thinks that's an interesting way.
And then there's other ways as it relates to just helping getting people out of their comfort zone, and maybe connecting people with other teams. So they've tried to institute more of like cross team collaboration or getting people involved in kind of mini, what they call tiger teams, or project teams, they kind of are taken away from maybe their normal day to day and exposed to new parts of the business where maybe they can bring their new level of creativity.
Me: That's really amazing. So I like the idea of dinner, what was the suggestion, you bring in a special guest and that person would prepare dinner and everybody kind of follows along?
Kris confirmed and stated that they've done like a special checked guest that comes in. They did one where was like a cheese making class, there's a wine tasting event where you could wine taste virtually. So it makes some of these Zoom meetings just a bit more exciting.
Me: So do you do that in the middle of the day? Or is that an additional Zoom meeting that is tacked on to the end of their day?
Kris stated that it could be both, he thinks for the wine tasting one, they typically would want that to be more like a 3:00 pm or 4:00 pm or 5:00 pm.
And so, it's typically still during business hours, but it just says, “Hey, have some fun with this and kind of meet more of your team and have a have some fun.”
But some other ones could happen during the day too as well. And it's more of a way to kind of think creatively versus just be in the same exact kind of Zoom fatigue.
Me: Yeah, I agreed. That's really cool, very creative, very innovative, and it does stimulate a different parts of the brain, which will definitely help them to not feel like they're doing the same thing over and over and it gets mundane. And just as you said don't feel motivated.
App, Website or Tool that Kris Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business
When asked about an online resource that he can’t live without in his business, Kris shared that from a collaboration perspective, Slack, it just like keeps them all collaborating, that is probably the one they couldn't live without.
One that he really loves is an app called Feedly, and it basically brings together hundreds of different blogs into one app that he enjoys reading.
And it's a great way for him to stay creative and really be immersed in a lot of different contexts of ideas. And he typically wakes up and do some reading in that app and then he'll typically go to bed and do some reading in it. And it just gives him new perspectives across a myriad of different topics.
Books That Have Had the Greatest Impact on Kris
Kris shared that he’s a huge podcast listener and actually give him the biggest inspiration and impact. And so, he’s all in on podcasts and a couple podcasts that he’s just obsessed with.
So he'd probably say he listens to podcasts, maybe daily, he would read books maybe a few times a year, so he’s much more engaged with podcasts and a couple that he loves, one's called Dare to Lead with Brene¢ Brown and another is called Acquired, another is called Follow Your Different and then a classic, another one, How I Built This.
Me: Oh, nice. May I ask what kind of topics they discuss predominantly on those podcasts? Are they more like self development podcasts? Or are they business podcasts?
Kris stated that he would say a bit of both, part of them are business related, but also, they also include talking to founders at times too, which gives you kind of personal inspiration as well. So he thinks it's part personal inspiration, part business, and then part just kind of interesting topics.
What Kris is Really Excited About Now!
Kris shared that one thing that he’s doing that is, now that they have close to 400 employees now. One of the things he’s doing is just random meetings with employees, and he created this new Slack channel called Ask Kris Anything and then he meets with 3 to 5 random employees each week.
And so, that's something that he’s doing just so that he can really understand how they're scaling the business and learn from everybody. And so, that's been something that he has been doing recently that he’s really excited to continue.
Where Can We Find Kris Online
LinkedIn – Kris Rudeegraap
Website – www.sendoso.com
Email – kris@sendoso.com
Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Kris Uses
When asked about a quote or saying that helps him get back track, Kris shared that he would say that the one that comes to mind that he remember the end that he thinks about often is, “Entrepreneurs spend a few years of their life like most people won't, so they can spend the rest of their life like most people can't.”
And so, he thinks it kind of hints on that like there's tough times for an entrepreneur, but if you make it, your life will be changed forever.
And so, that's one of his favourite quotes. The other one he thinks is a popular quote by Wayne Gretzky is, “You miss every shot you don't take.”
And he lives by that too, you got to take risks, you got to challenge yourself, you got to do stuff and get out there. And so, that's also an inspiring quote for him too.
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The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience
Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”
The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty.
This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately!
This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others.
Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!
Mark Smith is the President of Kitewheel. With over 20 years of global experience in Marketing Applications and Analytical CRM, Mark is a leader in building, growing and managing successful companies. Currently in “innovation mode” as the President of Kitewheel, Mark is focused on helping marketing agencies deliver better customer engagement through solutions that unify the “logic” layer of today’s customer-facing technology for their large brand clients.
Mark’s journey into customer behaviour and experience started early in his career. Shortly after achieving his Ph.D. in Mathematics and Statistics from the University of Edinburgh, Mark founded Quadstone – the first data mining company to focus explicitly on the analytics of customer behaviour. In the years that followed, Mark moved to Boston to build the US business and oversaw revolutionary analytic progress at clients including T-Mobile, Dell, Merrill Lynch and Fidelity. His leadership role expanded to global sale, marketing and product teams that led to a series of 3 successful M&A transactions over the last 10 years.
Questions
Highlights
Mark’s Journey
Mark shared that he’s the President of Kitewheel, they are a company that helps deliver great experiences to the customers of typically large organizations, by helping them manage the journeys that their customers are on. He has been doing this for a long time now, over 20 years he has been helping organizations understand the behaviour of customers from a kind of an analytic perspective. And at Kitewheel, they've kind of tuned that and moved more into the orchestration area, as they call it, which is helping businesses actually make a difference to the customer by changing the process, and helping the customer along their journey, so that they have the best possible experience.
Me: So customer journey mapping and customer orchestration. Those are kind of big terminologies in the customer experience space, for those members of our audience that may not necessarily know what that entails, could you break down for us what that is in the simplest possible terms, maybe give us an example of what it means to a business to understand that process?
Mark shared that journey mapping is certainly something that's been around for quite some time in the customer experience area, that the whole process of designing out the steps that a customer goes through on their journey, journey has become very popular, particularly the last few years, because organizations see it as a way managing that journey, is a way of kind of being somewhat in control of the experience and try and allows the business to do the best possible job of delivering a great experience.
And so organizations are trying to understand so what is the journey?
And what ways do customers interact with my business?
Which channels do they use?
What things do they look for on different channels?
And when do they use them?
And what order did they do things?
Too many businesses are very kind of focused on things from their perspective. And they would like customers to do things in a certain order, but it's all really about the customer, and they do things their way. And different customers do things in different ways and so they're often on different journeys, and organizations trying to map those out.
What Kitewheel is focused on is actually using the data inside organizations to do what they call journey analytics.
So not just theoretically, what do we think the customer journey is, but actually using the data from all these digital tools that we now have, and all these channels systems that record everything that happens, let's take those and start to analyze what's the real journey that the customers are on and let's visualize that so that the business can really understand not just what they think the customers doing or not just what the customers say they're doing through feedback surveys. But actually, what are they doing in terms of real behaviour.
Let's look at that. And that's journey analytics. And that journey analytics then gives you a frame, once you can see what the customers are really doing and you understand what makes them happy and or unhappy, then you can start to orchestrate, which is the process of actually changing things for the customer, helping them along their journey, nudging them this way, nudging them that way, reminding them of something they need to do. And that all helps them get to their end goal of getting a question answered, getting a customer service issue dealt with, buying a product, whatever it may be. If we can help get them there more smoothly, quickly, easily, the customer is going to regard that as a great experience and be very happy.
Key Performance Indicators in the Business to Predict Behaviour on What to Do Next
Me: What are some key performance indicators that you would need to watch the business as it relates to the data analytics in order to ensure that you can predict behaviour or at least nudge them as you had suggested on what they would need to do next or what they would need to be reminded of.
Mark shared that that's a great point. And what the organizations often have to do here is develop a small number of new performance indicators that are connected to journeys.
Lots of businesses today, they track things by channel or by product or by business unit and they know how many people visit the website, they know how many people open emails, they know how many people call the call centre, they know how many people say they're a net promoter and how many people complain.
But few organizations have tied all of that together to understand it as a connected experience and understand it as a journey.
And the key new metrics that need to be developed are how many customers are going down different journeys and what is the overall satisfaction of customers who go down these different experiences.
And the data is all there, it's just a matter of connecting it together so you could see it as a connected journey. And then say, customers would go down this journey, they're much happier than customers who go down this different journey, let's align the right customers with the right journey.
Today, most companies can only control those things, channel by channel, or activity by activity, interaction by interaction. And the best results come from moving on to a connected experience of lots of interactions or across lots of channels.
Mastering the Omni-Channel Experience
Me: We hear a lot also about an Omni-Channel experience. An Omni-Channel means that everything is connected, as you were suggesting just now. Could you give us an example of a company that you know, whether maybe you've worked with as a service provider, or a company that you are a customer of theirs? And maybe they haven't mastered it, they've come very close to mastering an Omni-Channel experience?
Mark shared that the Omni-Channel concept, it's supposed to mean, all channels, all possible channels. The idea being that we as customers can make any choice we want, we as customers can one day go online to get a product, another day walk into a store, another day phone up, shouldn't really matter, we should get the same level of experience, have access to the same products regardless of where we choose, or how we choose to do business.
And the great companies are able to connect those channels together so that it's seamless. And no matter what the customer chooses, as they move from potentially one channel to another, it's a seamless experience for them, that's what we all would regard as a great experience that if he’s on the website looking at something, can't find an answer to his question, so he calls for help, it's always great when your call goes through the customer service person talking to you knows why you're there.
And you can say, you’re calling because of a problem with your bill, because those channels have been connected and they know that he was just on the website with a billing problem, and therefore can help him instantly with that problem.
And so, that ability to connect those channels is where the kind of leading organizations are going, he had a great expert, you asked me for a specific example.
And he had a great experience just recently, he and his wife bought some new furniture from a company called Floyd who are an American manufacturer based in Detroit. And like everybody these days, like most people these days, they bought their furniture online, sitting at home, because they can't go anywhere. And they've done a fantastic job of making that a super kind of connected, highly branded experience. So, they half did the order on a mobile phone and then moved to a laptop.
But that went through, they instantly got confirmation and they got handed to a shipping company and actually there was something that had to be made and then handed to a shipping company.
But that was completely seamless, they had communications coming from both the shippers as well as the manufacturer.
But they were totally connected, each one knew what the other one was doing.
And they gave them advance notice of when the delivery was going to be arrived exactly on time.
They then phoned to check it was all correct, send them a survey following it.
Just everything works so smoothly, despite the fact that they were two different companies involved and like four different channels.
And when those things work well like that, what happens?
You tell everybody about it, and that's what we're all looking for. We all want businesses promoted by advocates who think we do a great job. And here he is, doing exactly that because it was a great experience.
Who Should Own Customer Experience in a Company
Me: So we are in that era now, as you said, people are way more aware of customer experience, there's clearly a lot more attention given to it. A lot of organizations maybe 10, 15 years ago that never used to allocate a budget towards customer experience definitely by force, the customer has forced them to realize the direct correlation between having customers and their bottom line, they certainly realize that they need to give some emphasis to customer experience. But who should own customer experience in a company?
Mark stated that this is a great question. And it really has changed dramatically, just in the last one or two years.
Because he thinks it's raised up significantly who owns customer experience, certainly, in the forward thinking businesses, the ones that are approaching customer experience the right way, they have realized that it's suddenly become this huge differentiator for the business from the competition.
In the old days, customer experience was seen as more a lower level thing in the business, it was a problem solving issue resolution thing, it was like the customer complaints department.
And now, the real forward thinking organization see it, “No, customer experience is actually about the whole business, in a way, it's what our brand is, this is the core message we give out to the market is the kind of experience we deliver.” And it's the number one thing people look for to differentiate one company from another. So it has to span the whole business.
And so, we see a lot of big CX initiatives now lead from the board level, real C level executives, and more and more companies are hiring Chief Experience Officers or Chief Customer Officers, who are going to take this customer centric view and drive experience as a connected thing across the typical three big divisions of sales, marketing, and service.
And oftentimes, customer experience was just in the service department but he thinks the real thinkers are bringing it up to be across all of them because every one of those communications, whether it comes from marketing, or customer service, or loyalty, or wherever, they're all part of the experience that the business delivers. So connecting them requires a top level very senior person to really lead this new generation of CX initiative.
Me: Amazing, thank you so much for sharing Mark. I did a training session earlier today with a financial organization. I'm here in Jamaica, actually. Are you in the States or in the UK?
Mark shared that he is in the States. He lives just outside Boston but his accent does come from the UK originally.
Me: Yes, it's still very strong. So one of the things that came up in the training session earlier today, and it's actually a great pet peeve of mine is sales and customer service, I strongly believe work hand in hand. And I find that a lot of companies that have sales representatives, they're extremely eager and enthusiastic and just on it to get the business, that first sale, but then to get me to buy again, or to follow up to ensure that I'm okay with the product or the service, whatever it may be, whether it's tangible or intangible, that's where they fail.
Is it something that needs to be psychological from a sales perspective for it to be merged with customer experience that they don't just look on it as a one-time sale.
I get it, you have a target, you need to earn X amount of dollars per month. But those customers that you signed on in November 2020, have you even reached out to them since the year started? Where do we close that gap? Or how do we close that gap?
Mark stated that that's a great example of that sort of systematic systemic problems that organizations have to do this kind of customer experience delivery right and that's the sort of silos, the organizational silos that exist in so many businesses, driven by management structures, team structures, and sadly, often incentive structures that really govern what people do, what your teams do, the lifeblood of the company, the people, what they actually do, if those are not connected and everybody from the top down is focused on the experience goal, then you'll get this kind of situation.
And that's why you need a top level leader around these initiatives to make sure that the organization lines up.
It's funny he often thinks that the real challenge these days of getting these stuff right is not technology anymore, it's not data, it's the organization actually doing the right things and behaving the right way.
And so, if your sales team is totally incented, and motivated around just getting the deal in and then they hand it on to somebody else to look after that customer, then they're only going to care about it up to that point. And if their incentives and their commission is purely based on that, then that's where it stops, and they move on to the next thing.
Now, that can work if you've got a good customer success group who picks up the customer and their job is making sure that customer’s happy and they pick up.
That's what actually what they do at Kitewheel is a nice handoff between the sales team who bring the customer up to the point of becoming one of their customers and then their customer success group picks them up and they're responsible for every week, every month, making sure that customer’s happy and successful.
And ultimately, in two years-time, three years-time would renew and stay with them. And as long as there's a connection and the handoff happens, and you've got people caring about both sides, that can work.
The problem is when there isn't anybody to hand it to, they’re just sales are being done and immature businesses can often be like this, they've just bring sales in, but no one picks them up.
And it seems like no one cares about you. We've all experienced that, you buy a product and then it feels like no one's interested in you anymore, they've got your money, and you're on your own kind of thing.
App, Website or Tool that Mark Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business
When asked about an online resource that he can’t live without, Marks shared that for his business today, it would almost certainly be Zoom. They have suddenly moved a year ago now almost, to be in a virtual business, no one goes in the office anymore, everybody works from home, he used to travel almost every week to visit customers. And now he has been sitting in the same room for the last 12 months doing everything virtual. So if they didn't have these tools, it's not always Zoom, many customers use Microsoft Teams or WebEx. But those online collaboration environments is undoubtedly the most important tool in his life right now to keep the contact going. Keep connected with the customer, make sure they're happy.
Books That Have Had the Greatest Impact on Mark
When asked about books that have had the biggest impact, Mark shared that an interesting question. The best recent book he read actually just literally a few weeks ago, he read Ben Horowitz’s The Hard Thing About Hard Things: Building a Business When There Are No Easy Answers, which is a great business book. It's like he's gone through all the things that he (Mark) has gone through running a company over the last 20 years. And just full of great kind of down to earth advice on how to handle difficult situations and lots of stories about how this sort of thing happens all the time, it's always difficult, there's always completely unknown things that come around the corner that you need to be able to adapt and handle.
So, he really enjoyed that read a few weeks ago. And then the other classic business book that he read a long time ago was Geoffrey Moore's Crossing the Chasm, which is all about how you go from early kind of inventive ideas to more mainstream business. And he feels like that's where the customer experience world is at the moment, it's gone from early stage stuff to suddenly, it’s like every company out there is suddenly interested in customer experience. And we're definitely going through that kind of transition right now.
Me: I think COVID has actually brought it to the forefront even more, that has been my experience here in Jamaica for sure. They're more sensitive, and they pay more attention to the quality of the experience that they've gotten and I don't know if it's because safety has been like the new buzzword, how safe do you make me feel if I have to come into your environment and that a lot of times falls on how to services delivered. Something as simple, which has nothing to do with the product or service that you deliver but something as simple as when you actually arrive at a client's location and they are taking your temperature and spraying you, sometimes they're spraying it with things that you're not aware of. And nobody is actually saying to you, may I please sanitize your hands, and the liquid that we're using for the sanitation is alcohol mixed with lemongrass oil, or whatever concoction they've put in a bottle, but I think it is courteous, you should exercise courtesy and tell the customer what you are sanitizing their hand with.
Mark agreed and shared that Yanique made a really interesting point. And one of the things that worries him about the whole pandemic is we're being moved all this digital sort of human less contact mechanisms and people are going to forget about how to actually interact with each other, those kind of situations where people don't talk to you anymore, maybe because they're a bit scared because this situation is scary.
But he knows exactly what you mean about that kind of personal interaction thing. But he also thinks this COVID, it has totally changed the business world as well and it is driving this interesting customer experience, because for so many businesses, their customers have totally changed how they experienced that business.
All of a sudden all of our customers are also at home, like we are, and also having to do things on new channels, on more digital channels and that's a whole different experience for a lot of people. And so, the smart companies are suddenly focusing on, “We better investigate this area and do the best we can to make this experience for the customers a good experience.”
What Mark is Really Excited About Now!
Mark shared that Kitewheel has been around about 8 years and their business has been very focused on very large organizations who have been the sort of real leaders in this customer experience space and the first ones to move into, try and manage journeys better, and connect their channels and use all their data and so on.
And the thing they’re working on and kind of launching in just a few weeks time, is how they bring those same things, the things that the big guys have been pioneering?
How do they bring that to everyone?
How can they package that up, and make this sort of a journey approach, accessible to a lot more companies, a lot more businesses by essentially simplifying it and packaging it up so that everyone can kind of benefit from those, the early work of the kind of pioneers.
And that's very exciting. And it's a sort of reaction to get so many people asking them for that. They don't necessarily have a big army of internal developers to do things themselves but they'd still like to start taking this more customer experience centric approach to things. So, that's their big initiative that they're working on this year, and in fact, launching in a couple of weeks.
Where Can We Find Mark Online
Website – www.kitewheel.com
Email – msmith@kitewheel.com
LinkedIn – Mark Smith
Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Mark Uses
When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Mark shared that he has a lots of those, he’s well known for having lots of quotes for different things. One of the mottos of the business, actually, they have a motto which is, “Work hard and be nice to people.” They have a poster that hangs in the office. No one sees it anymore but it does hang in the office. But he grew up in Scotland and there's a great there's matching quote from Scotland which is that, “Hard work never killed anybody.” And that would be his quote for when times are tough, you should remember that hard work never killed anybody, which is an old Scottish expression.
Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest
Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners
Links
The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience
Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”
The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty.
This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately!
This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others.
Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!