Dave Singer is Verint’s Global Vice President, Go-To-Market Strategy. Singer is responsible for driving the GTM strategy for Verint’s Workforce Engagement solutions, and the Verint industry leading Open CCaaS Platform. The strategy is based on developing innovative messaging and offerings both partner and direct that drive customer centric differentiation and aligned value with both customer needs and expectations.  

Singer joined Verint in 2002 and has held a variety of roles in Verint including Director of Solution Consultants, RVP of Solution Principles, and most recently RVP, Presales, focusing on Solution Consulting and Innovation. Prior to Verint, Dave was a Principal at eLoyalty and a Software Architect at IBM.

Questions

• We always like to give our guests an opportunity to share in their own words a little bit about your journey, how it is that you got from where you were to where you are today?
• What is Verint? And what does Verint do?
• What would you say are maybe two or three overarching themes or pain points that your customers predominantly have challenges with as it relates to closing that customer engagement gap?
• What do you think are maybe two things if your clients came to you and asked where do you think we need to be putting our focus for 2024 to kind of set ourselves apart from the competition and really be able to supersede our customers’ expectations?” What would those two things be based on your experience, as well as maybe what the data is actually telling you?
• Could you also share with our audience what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without In your business?
• Can you also share with us maybe one or two books that you've read that has had a great impact on you? It could be a book that you read recently, or even one that you read a very long time ago, but it has had a great impact on you.
• Can you also share with our listeners what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.
• Where can listeners find you online?
• Now, before we wrap our episodes, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off track? The quote kind of helps to get you back on track. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Dave’s Journey 

Me: I know we read a little bit about your background in the bio that I just read. But we always like to give our guests an opportunity to share in their own words a little bit about your journey, how it is that you got from where you were to where you are today?

Dave shared that he’ll go to beginning to now, the opposite order of the quick CV Yanique read. So, as was said, he started out life as a Software Engineer and after a little while, he realized he could have more impact on more customers and more people if he moved from just building one piece of code to consulting with organization, how do you use technology to improve their customer service and improve their operations. 

He did that for a while, then he moved over to Verint and he really felt that Verint had a great set of applications and tools to do exactly that. And so, moved through there, again, continue to help customers deliver better experiences, their (Verint) customers better experiences for their customers and their employees. And his move to go to market strategy a few years ago, it was really a great opportunity for him to be able to, again, step back from looking at individual brands or individual opportunities and look at more holistically, how can Verint help all brands, how can Verint help all of their customers really help deliver better customer service, better agents, and employee experiences, and without sounding too, too corny, but really, really help people.

What is Verint and What Do You Do?

Me: Now, could you also tell our listeners, what is Verint? And what does Verint do?

Dave shared that Verint is the customer engagement company, and they're focused on helping brands elevate customer experience while also reducing costs and improving efficiency. So, the core problem in the market they set out to solve is something they call The Engagement Capacity Gap. So, if you think about it, customers, consumers, their expectations are going up and up and up and up all the time as there are more channels, more modalities, more ways that consumers can interact with brands, their expectations, the number of contacts go up, and their expectations go up. 

One of the things he thinks is really interesting is that people are now expecting online speed of service in the real world. So an example he uses a lot is, it’s different on the experience, if you go to a store, you see something you like maybe it's the colour you want is out of stock, or the price is too high. So you can scan it on your phone, and have it delivered for an online retailer before you get home. 

So, that kind of intersection of the real world and the digital world drives incredible expectations increase. And the problem brands have is that they have relatively flat budgets and resources to meet these expectations, that's incredibly hard. 

So, what Verint does is delivers they call “CX Automation Capabilities or Customer Experience Automation”, ways they can help the employees of brands meet these expectations without having to do exponential increases in hiring. So, what they do is they help their customers engage better with their consumers to meet their expectations in the most efficient and productive and deliver great experiences across the board.

Overarching Themes or Pain Points that Your Customers Have Challenges With 

Me: Based on your experience, Dave, in the customer engagement space and the different customers that you work with, what would you say are maybe two or three overarching themes or pain points that your customers predominantly have challenges with as it relates to closing that engagement gap?

Dave shared that he looks at from one pain point any two dimensions. One is, from the customer perspective, it's interesting, the common belief used to be channel switching is bad, you should deal with customers and solve their problem with a channel they first reach out on. But that's changing, customers and consumers want to change channels at their own direction, right. So, you may start with an email then flip to chat, then call in, then follow up of an email, that's fine, that's how consumers want to interact, especially since all of those channels now land on your smartphone, it's not like you're moving to a different device per channel. 

And that creates a real challenge for brands to be able to manage all these channels in a completely seamless way so that customers aren't repeating themselves every time they connect.

And then on the flip side, the challenge for employees is, theme probably come up a few times here is great employee experiences are necessary for great customer experiences. 

If your employees are disengaged and stressed out and don't have the tools they need, then they're poor experience is going to just seem is going to translate to poor customer experiences. 

So, he thinks brands really struggle with how do you manage the customer need for seamless interaction and continuity of interaction across channels, while also providing the engagement, the tools and the experiences for their employees that allow them to deliver great experiences to customers when they interact.

Things an Organization Needs to Focus on to Set Themselves Apart From the Competition and Supersede Their Customers’ Expectations 

Me: Now Dave, we are basically closing out 2023 and we're embarking on a new calendar year, lots of things happening across different industries throughout the globe. What do you think are maybe two things if your clients came to you and said, “Dave, as the subject matter expert in this area, where do you think we need to be putting our focus for 2024 to kind of set ourselves apart from the competition and really be able to supersede our customers’ expectations?”

“What would those two things be based on your experience, as well as maybe what the data is actually telling you?”

Dave shared that there's a couple of things, they’re both related. He would classify 2023 as the year of experimenting with AI, Gen AI and Chat GPT, and Open AI, all that really hit the world in a big way, Novemberish of 2022. 

And through this year, a lot of brands are experimenting with how do we use this to deliver better content, deliver better answers, support our customers better, but it's very much been a year of experimentation. 

He thinks 2024 is the year where that has to get operationalized. Brands need to look at, “Okay, we've experimented with this for year, we've done some trials, next year is the year to make that drive value for us.” is one thing. 

The second thing, he thinks this is really important. And this is core to the ethos of a Verin is think about employee and human augmentation, not replacement. So, for a long time, there's been this belief or this talk track that, “Hey, if we get the right Chatbots and the right RPA and the right tech in place, we won't need people anymore, we can automate that away.” And he doesn't believe the data shows us, that's not the case. There are things that humans are better at than machines, at a certain level of complexity and value and emotional importance, humans want to speak to humans.

So, he thinks the focus of AI and automation, and we're very focused is our delivery of CX automation is really around human augmentation, because that gives the employees the power and the great experience that lets them help customers in a better way. So, 2024 is going to be the year of getting value from AI versus experimenting and pivoting from human replacement to human augmentation with CX automation.

App, Website or Tool that Dave Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about online resource that he can’t live without in his business, Dave shared that there is so many, for them he'd say broadly it's access to knowledge that comes in a few different ways. 

So, it's the ability to do research on the internet in general and is to get access to broad information. And he thinks right now, looking at some of the Gen AI and the rag tools that let us turn that information into knowledge to get answers faster.  

So really, for him, it's all about getting to answers, so any of the any of the online tools that allows for knowledge retrieval quickly. And again, we have knowledge management solutions and wiki solutions, things like that. But to him, it's all about access to knowledge and answers quickly.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Dave

When asked about books that have had a great impact, Dave shared that Outside In: The Power of Putting Customers at the Center of Your Business by Harley Manning is a great book, it's a classic that always reminds us to focus, look at things from the customer perspective, and design our solutions and our tools, our processes, from the point of view of the customer, not the point of view of what we as a company, or we as a brand want to do. That's one of being pivotal in how he thinks about things. 

Another one that he thinks is great just from a business strategy book is What Got You Here Won't Get You There: How Successful People Become Even More Successful by Marshall Goldsmith. So again, it reminds us that things change, that things change increasingly quickly. So, we always have to be evaluating our strategies and our approaches and our solutions to adapt to where we are right now and where we want to get to. 

And just because a pattern worked for us last year, doesn't mean it's going to work this year, doesn't mean throw it away. But you just can't have that assumption that doing the same thing over and over again, is going to keep having the same results going forward. 

So, he would just look at those two and ones he read both a while ago, but come back to all the time, the focus on customer perspective first and always evaluate are your strategies effective right now? Not were they effective last year is really important.

What Dave is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that he’s really excited about, Dave stated that first he’s going to share something completely unbusiness related, personal that he’s excited about that he'll bring it back. So, his daughter just started college this year and he’s really excited to watch that process of her learning and growing and moving from a kid in high school to a to a young woman in college and getting ready to meet the world. So, he thinks it's first aside from the fact he’s just so proud of her, it's just really exciting to watch and remember what that development looks like and feels like and how to take that forward. 

The other thing if anyone has seen him on video sometimes, his office, he has martial arts weapons all over his office, he’s been training that for a while. He’s currently training for his next rank, which is exciting for him personally. But one of the core concepts in martial arts is something called beginner's mind, which says no matter how advanced or experienced you get, you can never forget that you're always the beginner at something. There's always more to learn about the basics. And every time he looks at training for a level or a promotion, it reminds him when he comes back to work that, “Hey, I always have more to learn, right. There's always something to pick up from even things I've done 1000 times.”

So again, he thinks that's a really important mindset going forward. And it's something he reinforced with his teams all the time is, just because you think you know, doesn't mean you know. 

Just because you're good at something doesn't mean you couldn't be better. Just because someone does something differently in the way you do it doesn't mean it's worse, it just means it's different, it's something to learn from that. So, he thinks bringing that concept of beginner's mind back and keeping that, it keeps you humble, and keeps you open to getting better every day.

Me: Yeah, those are really good points. Awesome.

Where Can We Find Dave Online

Website - www.verint.com

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/verint

X - @Verint

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/verint

LinkedIn – David Singer

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Dave Uses 

When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Dave shared that it's not so much a quote but he just believe there's always a path forward. “And just because you don't see the path in front of you right this second, doesn't mean it's not there.” So, for him, when things get tough, he just remember that just because he doesn't see the path right now, doesn't mean if he doesn't take two steps forward, he’s going to break through the trees, it's going to be right there. So, holding on to that fact is how he gets through adversity or when times maybe aren’t turning the way he thinks they are.

Me: So, there's always a path forward. Alright, thank you so much for sharing Dave. Well, Dave, just wanted to say thank you very much for taking time out of your very busy schedule, and hopping on our podcast and sharing a little bit about your journey, as well as what you do at Verint and the great value that Verint is bringing as it relates to customer engagement and closing that gap for the many different organizations and customers that you work with. And also some of the things that organizations should try to focus on for 2024 as we really try to utilize all of the different knowledge sources, and technology opportunities that have been presented to us in a way that really helps to exceed the customers’ expectations and even give them what they need or want before they even know that they need it or want it, so really enjoyed the conversation and I just want to express our deepest gratitude to you.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

•     Outside In: The Power of Putting Customers at the Center of Your Business by Harley Manning

•     What Got You Here Won’t Get You There: How Successful People Become Even More Successful by Marshall Goldsmith

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Matt Abrahams is a leading expert in communication with decades of experience as an educator, author, podcast host and coach. As a Lecturer in Organisational Behaviour at Stanford University's Graduate School of Business, he teaches popular classes in strategic communication and effective virtual presenting. He received Stanford GSB’s Alumni Teaching Award in recognition of his teaching students around the world. 

When he isn’t teaching, Matt is a sought-after keynote speaker and communication consultant. He has helped countless presenters improve and hone their communication, including some who have delivered IPO road shows as well as TED, World Economic Forum, and Nobel Prize presentations. 

His online talks garner millions of views and he hosts the popular award-winning podcast Think Fast, Talk Smart: The Podcast. He is the author of Think Faster, Talk Smarter: How to Speak Successfully When You're Put on the Spot. His previous book, Speaking Up without Freaking Out: 50 Techniques for Confident and Compelling Presenting has helped thousands of people manage speaking anxiety and present more confidently and authentically. 

Questions 

• So, We always like to ask our guests in their own words, if you could share a little bit about your journey, how it is that you got to where you are today, in your own words.

• In Entrepreneurs Magazine, your article, it was called How to Sound Smart and Memorable Anytime. So, I would love for you to share with our listeners a little bit about the technique that you talk about in the article.

• Are there any other techniques that you encourage someone to practice in order to overcome that speaking anxiety?

• A big part of communication outside of speaking is listening, what has been your experience as a coach trying to help people to become better listeners?

• Can you share with our listeners what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can’t live without in your business?

• We'd also like for you to share with our listeners, maybe one or two books that you've read, could be a book that you read recently, or even one you read a very long time ago, but the book has had a very big impact on you.

• Can you also share with our listeners what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

• Where can listeners find you online?

• Now, before we wrap our episodes up, Matt, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off track, this quote kind of helps to get you back on track.

Highlights

Matt’s Journey

Matt shared that he’s somebody who has always been passionate and curious about communication. He remembers as a young child, being fascinated with how people communicate. In fact, one day, his mother decided it was important for him and his brother to have a yard sale, a garage sale because they had so much stuff, she was frustrated and wanted to get rid of it. 

And where he grew up, there were lots of garage sales all over the place. And his mother specifically said, misspell the word garage on the signs that they were putting up and he was surprised by this advice. But they did and they inserted the letter “B” in the word garage. So, they had a garbage sale while everybody else had a garage sale. And they sold more stuff than anybody that weekend. And at that moment, he realised wow, the way you speak, the language you use, the words you use can influence people. 

So, ever since then he’s been fascinated by it, he studied it in school in graduate school, he worked in the corporate world for over a decade and saw the impact of communication both good and bad. And to this day, he finds it fascinating and do a lot of work in the field.

Techniques Talked About in The Article from Entrepreneurs Magazine, How to Sound Smarter and Memorable Anytime

Me: Now, I was lucky enough when travelling in October to purchase a copy of Entrepreneur Magazine. And I came upon your article, “How to Sound Smart and Memorable Anytime.” And I read the article and I was so intrigued, it caught my attention so much that I was like, “Oh my goodness, I have find this gentleman on LinkedIn and I have to invite him as guest on our podcast.” And so, I would just love for you to share the technique that you talked about in this article as it relates to communication and presenting and just share with our listeners a little bit about what that technique can do to improve on your presentations.

Matt shared that when it comes to communicating, especially communicating in the moment, it is critical that we are effective and we come off as confident, competent and clear. Many of us get very nervous when we have to speak in the moment and it can be very challenging for us. So, he has spent a lot of his last little bit of times trying to learn how to help people be better at speaking in the moment and that's what his whole new book is about. It's really about helping people feel better in the moment so that they can come off as confident and comfortable and help those better understand what it is they're talking about. 

So, the article that you're referring to is really about one of the ways that we can go about sounding better and more intelligent when we speak, it's leveraging a specific structure. So, what's critical in our communication is that we package the information up in a way that is readily digestible by our audience. Many of us when we communicate spontaneously just itemize information, we share what we're thinking as we're thinking it. And that's not how people process information. 

He talked to many neuroscientists and they say our brains are wired for story, something that has a beginning, a middle and an end, logical connections of ideas. 

So, in the article and one of the things he teaches a lot is how do you put structure to communication? And he talked about one of his favourite structures, it's three questions. What?, So, what? Now, What?  

What is the idea you're talking about? It's your product, your service, your offering your update, your feedback, it is the what? 

So, what is why is it important and relevant to your audience? We have known for decades that content that is relevant and salient for an audience is what they pay attention to. 

And then finally, now, what is what comes next? Maybe it's do you have questions for me, or let me show you a demonstration, or let's set up another meeting. 

So, by simply following the structure, What, So, what, Now, what, answering those questions, you can package up your information nicely. In fact, he just used that structure to help explain the structure. He told you what it was, why it's important, and how you can use it. So, that article, and a lot of what he does is really about helping people learn different structures for different speaking situations.

Me: Amazing. And you also had some other structures that you mentioned in the article where you spoke about:

·      Problem, Solution, Benefit

·      Point, Reason, Example point

·      Comparison, Contrast, Conclusion

·      Situation, Task, Action and Result

Could you just elaborate, maybe about 10 to 20 seconds on each for those just for our listeners, as well?

Matt shared that when it comes to speaking in the moment, there lots of different types of circumstances and situations that we find ourselves in. And different structures apply for different situations. So, when you're selling something, trying to persuade somebody of something, a very useful structure is problem, solution, benefit. 

Many of us have found ourselves in circumstances where we need to persuade, so you articulate the problem, challenge or issue, you then explain your suggestion for how we go about solving it. And then you explain the benefits of doing so. So, that can be a very useful structure. In fact, any television advertisement you've ever seen has been in that structure. 

There are other structures as well. In the article, he talked about another one, he recommends that people use a lot, which is comparison, contrast, conclusion, you compare two items together or three, or four. And then you talk about how they're different, that's the contrast. And then you give your conclusion. There are myriad structures out there, people are familiar with some, others not so familiar with. But the idea is to have a toolkit of structures that you can leverage to help you in those moments where you're struggling.

Techniques Encouraged to Practice in Order to Overcome Speaking Anxiety 

Me: So, a big part of what you do as well, Matt is trying to help people get over the anxiety of presenting in front of a lot of people confidently, and I know structure, the methodology of the structure will definitely help you to have a little bit more focus, and you will have something in place versus just going up there and not knowing what to say. But are there any other techniques that you encourage someone to practice in order to overcome that speaking anxiety?

Matt shared that first and foremost, he doesn't think you can overcome anxiety, he thinks we can become more comfortable with it, we can learn to manage it. But would we even want to overcome it, anxiety is actually helpful to us, it is something that helps us focus, it allows us to be sure that what we're saying is important for ourselves and our audience, and it gives us energy. So, to him, it's all about managing anxiety, not overcoming anxiety. 

And when it comes to that there are lots of things that people can do, we can manage both symptoms, as well as sources, symptoms are the things that we physiologically experience. And then sources are the things that initiate and exacerbate our anxiety. 

So, it's important to attack both situations. So, symptoms are the things that we experienced, so many people get shaky, they feel their heart rate go up, so to help those with specific techniques, for example, deep belly breathing, you can breathe, take a slow inhale in and a longer exhale out and that will actually initiate a relaxation response that can help and it doesn't take very much to actually have that take effect.

If you're shaky that's adrenaline trying to move you from threat towards safety and that means that we can do some movement in the beginning of a presentation stepping forward towards the audience, big broad gestures that gives the adrenaline a place to go and that way we can feel less anxious of our symptoms. 

Now there are sources too, sources are the things that start our anxiety and continue it. 

The biggest source of anxiety is people have a goal when they speak and it's good to have a goal when you speak. But we're afraid we won't achieve our goal and if you think about it, that means we're afraid that we won't achieve a future outcome. 

So, the way to short circuit goal based anxiety is to become present, be focused in the moment, focus on what you're saying, focus on the audience and their needs, do something physical to get you in your body out of your head. These are all ways to manage the source of future thoughts. 

So, there's a lot we can do to manage anxiety, the very first book he wrote was called Speaking Up without Freaking Out, it's a 50 techniques to help people feel better and more comfortable in the moment speaking. So, if we can manage our anxiety, we're going to do much better when it comes to our mission.

Communication: Apart from Speaking, How to Become a Better Listener

Me: I believe a big part of communication outside of speaking, which I think the bigger part of communication that's way more important than speaking is listening. What has been your experience as a coach trying to help people to become better listeners, sometimes you're in a conversation, and I find that I have a challenge personally, with persons when I'm communicating, and they don't give you a moment to express your thought fully, and they start talking in the middle of your sentence. So, you're not even able to complete what you're actually saying and how do you get to that point where you can be present in the moment when the person is speaking so you can take in all that they're saying to you and process that information carefully, before actually making a response and get to the speaking part.

Matt shared that yes, listening is really important and many of us don't do it well. In fact, he heard somebody say, “Listening is really just what we do when we're waiting for our turn.” 

You need to listen deeply, focused in a present oriented way to really not only show that you care about the person to connect, but also to understand what's needed in the moment. 

Giving an example. Imagine you and him come out of a meeting and you say to him, “Matt, what do you think?” And he says, “Oh, good, she wants feedback. Let me give it. Well, this work, this didn't work, you could have done this better, we should have done this, etc.” But had he really listened, he might have noticed that your tone was a little quieter than usual. You came down to the back door instead of the front door, you were looking down when you asked him that question, what you really needed in that moment was not feedback, but it was support, and he missed the clues and cues. And he by jumping into giving you all this harsh feedback might have damaged the relationship.  

So, we need to learn to listen well. How do you do that? 

First and foremost, you listen for the bottom line, when we focus on what the person is saying in a deep way. What's the bottom line, we listen with a much more focused intensity than how we normally do it, which is just the top line, just the gist, what are they saying. And then as soon as we hear it, we begin rehearsing and evaluating and judging and that works against us really understanding. 

So, the way to become a better listener is to listen for the bottom line, to give yourself permission to pay attention not just to what they're saying but how they're saying it, context in which you're saying it. This is hard work. Listening is challenging. He heard somebody once say, “You should listen until you sweat.” And he loves that idea, because it's implying that listening is an active activity, something that we really need to focus on. So, he loves that Yanique brought up that question, and he hopes everybody listening takes time to listen better.

App, Website or Tool that Matt Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about online resources that he can’t live without in his business, Matt shared that he gets a tonne of email and he uses a tool called Superhuman to help him parse through his email. It is an amazing tool, it has probably saved him 30%....40% of his email processing time. He loves the tool. He met the founder of the company a number of years ago, when he explained to him what he was working on, he fell in love with it instantly. And it is the tool he uses the most and it is the most helpful tool to him.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Matt

When asked about books that have had an impact, Matt shared that beyond the books that he’s written, which has had a huge impact on him. He’s learned a lot in writing those two books Think Faster, Talk Smarter and Speaking up Without Freaking Out. 

There are two books that he recommends to everybody. The first book is called Improv Wisdom, Improv Wisdom: Don’t Prepare, Just Show Up by Patricia Ryan Madson. It is a very short book, but it is life changing. It has changed his life. It is a book that talks about the rules and ways that improvisation, improv can be applied to daily life. So, it's not about being funny, it's not about being up on a stage. It's about how to live your life in a more present oriented, connected, spontaneous way. Fantastic book! 

The other book is a book he recommends to anybody looking to get better at their communication. It is an older book, as is Improv Wisdom. It is called Made to Stick: Why Some Ideas Survive and Others Die by Dan and Chip Heath, Chip Heath actually is a colleague of his at Stanford's Business School. It's all about how to make your ideas stand out and stick in people's minds in a world where there's a lot of things pulling at our attention. They give a six step methodology much like he does in his new book, that's all about how to make your ideas stick. He thinks everybody who wants to improve their communication, and they're lives should check out both of those books.

What Matt is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that’s he’s excited about, Matt shared that he’s very, very excited about the podcast he host Think Fast, Talk Smart, he’s dedicating a lot of his time and resources to expanding and extending the communication best practices and tips that they share through experts. He believes it helps him become a better person, a better communicator and he certainly thinks it helps everybody. So, he’s excited in the new year to put a lot of effort into that.

Me: Perfect. Okay, thank you for sharing Matt. We'll also have a link to Matt's podcast in the episode show notes as well, for anyone that would like to tap into Matt's podcast and gain some more insight on being a better communicator.

Where Can We Find Matt Online

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/maabrahams

Website – www.mattabrahams.com

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Matt Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Matt shared that it's a quote that he heard first in a silly movie, a movie called Buckaroo Banzai. And then he says he’s showing his age, because it's many, many, many years ago. He knows it didn't come from this movie, but the quote is simple, “No matter where you go, there you are.” 

And he often can live in the future, he can be worried and thinking about future consequences, what comes next. And he has learned that something that can help ground him is simply to come back to the present and say, no matter where you go, there you are, deal with what's coming on in front of you and that's how we get things moving forward. So, that's one of his favourite quotes and one that helps him a lot.

Me: So, thank you so much, Matt, for taking time out of your very busy schedule, for hopping on this podcast and being so gracious in facilitating this interview when I reached out to you originally. I definitely have gotten your book, I've started reading it and I've definitely shared it. I think I've shared it with at least maybe two or three organizations that I've done training with between October and December when I was first introduced to you through that article, so I think you're doing great work. And I really appreciate the time that you've taken to hop on our podcast and just share some great insights that I believe as customer experience practitioners that we can definitely use to enhance the service delivery that we have if we improve on our communication skills.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

•     Think Faster, Talk Smarter: How to Speak Successfully When You’re Put on the Spot by Matt Abrahams

•     Speaking Up without Freaking Out: 50 Techniques for Confident and Compelling Presenting by Matthew Abrahams

•     Improv Wisdom: Don’t Prepare, Just Show Up by Patricia Ryan Madson

•     Made to Stick: Why Some Ideas Survive and Others Die by Chip Heath and Dan Heath

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners 

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty.

This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately!

This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others.

Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

Michelle Pascoe (CSP) is an international speaker, accredited trainer, researcher, author, podcaster and experienced businesswoman. She has an undeniable passion for customer service, mystery shopping and team motivation, and is a specialist in every aspect of service operations and processes and their impact on the customer experience.  

In 1994, she founded one of Australia's most respected training companies, Optimum Operating Procedures and Services Pty Ltd (OOPS). Serving the hospitality industry for almost 30 years, OOPS is still a thriving provider of mystery shopping, service benchmarking, surveys and focus groups, competitor audits, team training and leadership development - including the highly successful Middle Management Movement program. 

Michelle’s key focus on passion pertain to service delivery and the expectations of the 21st century customer, through mapping their journey, and she firmly believes that a feeling of belonging created throughout the experience is a key point of difference in creating the essential human connection.

Questions

• So, could you share with our listeners a little bit about how you got to where you are today?

• Could you maybe just put in context for us just how it is that services in your country currently are in your part of the world? And what are some of the main service issues, maybe across different industries, if there is like maybe a two or three overarching themes that you've identified since you work with different organisations that you've found that companies tend to struggle with in terms of delivering that excellent service?

• One of the things I wanted to find out from you, as it relates to that specific point, do you believe that the customer becoming rude is a behavioural issue that is maybe cultural in terms of just their mannerism? Or do you think it is a catalyst as a result of how they're being treated?

• And as listeners of this podcast, if there was like a business owner, or maybe a senior person in a customer success or customer experience department that would be listening to this episode, and they themselves are considering doing such an activity (mystery shop) for 2024, what would be your advice? What are some of the benefits that you think will be derived?

• Now, can you also share with our listeners, what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

• Can you also share with our listeners, maybe one or two books that you've read? It could be a book that you read a very long time ago, but it has had a great impact on you, or even one that you've read recently.

• Now, Michelle, can you also share with our listeners what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

• Where can listeners find you online?

• Now, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you got derailed or you went off track, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Michelle’s Journey

Me: Now, before we start getting into the core of the conversation, we always like to give our guests an opportunity to share in their own words a little bit about their own journey. So, could you share with our listeners a little bit about how you got to where you are today?

Michelle shared that she started her business back in 1994. So, it only seems like yesterday, even though it's nearly 30 years, 3 decades. And how she got into the industry was she’s been an employee for a number of years in the hospitality and marketing fields and she had a horrific interview and she thought back to herself then, this is not a way to run a business. 

So, after a very short period of time, she did some various courses, business courses, and she started her own business. Now the development over the years from back then, which was offering more piping services because that was one thing she was good at, she slowly moved into training. And then within a few short years, got into the hospitality industry and absolutely love it, because to her, the connection with the customer, both the internal and the external customer, just gives her so much joy and passion. 

And over that time, some of those young boys and girls she trained nearly 30 years ago are now CEOs of their own businesses, and she has had the honour and privilege of seeing their own personal journey. But they have also taken her on the journey through the various companies that they have been with. So yes, it's been a wonderful 3 decades and she looks forward to more years ahead of her.

In Terms of Delivering Excellent Service, What Are Some Main Service Issues or Overarching Themes Identified Working with Different Organizations

Me: So, you are in the service industry for many, many years now. And I know services pretty much standard across most countries across the world. I've interviewed persons from Australia before on this podcast, but I always like to get a perspective from people that are from different parts of the world. So, could you maybe just put in context for us just how it is that services in your country currently or in your part of the world? And what are some of the main service issues, maybe across different industries, if there is like maybe a two or three overarching themes that you've identified since you work with different organizations that you've found that companies tend to struggle with in terms of delivering that excellent service?

Michelle stated yes, you are correct in the sense that service is an expectation no matter what country we are in, in the world. However, in Australia, and she says it's very similar, she’s not long back from the US herself, is that they are still struggling to have people apply for positions. Now, Australia is a very large country, they have a lot of regional areas that their city people and their overseas tourists love to come to, to travel and enjoy the outback areas, however, their expectation is that the restaurants will be open, the hotels will be open, the service will be impeccable, and it should be and the owners of those businesses really try. But it’s very, very, very hard to get staff at the moment.  

They are finding when they closed their borders, a lot of their overseas backpackers who work predominantly in the hospitality industry have not returned, it's very slow. And they're also finding even in their city venues, and this is across all industries, not just hospitality, that it's a longer process now for people to actually come in to businesses and wish to apply. Before 2020, they were finding that they have a number of applicants they could choose from, but now it is trying to even get people to apply and then retain them. The world has changed in that not that everybody just comes to work at home, because that's just not serviceable, particularly in the hospitality. But it's understanding that we are now working with four key generations. 

And so, what are we offering them in the workplace that is going to provide not just that simple analogy of lifework balance, but actually what are we actually asking them questions, finding out what they're needing? And she thinks we're finding the businesses that are doing that and changing the rostering system to perhaps what it was always been for many, many years, is attracting the right applicants slowly, but it is getting better. So, she thinks that's probably one of the key areas. 

When it comes to service is understanding what customer's needs are. There's a lot of intolerance, there's a lot of entitlement from customers, she'll put her hand up and openly say that they see that so often, the rudeness of customers and this idea that they think that provider of that service is a servant, and not just providing a service. And that's what they're doing. People are providing a service, they are serving them, but they are not a servant. 

So, they do find that a lot of people that are new in the industry when it comes to customer service, whether it's retail, hospitality, real estate, that they leave pretty quickly, because they get hurt, the resilience is low, it's hard, some customers are quite rude. So, how can handle that? Certainly an area that she’s finding they work on a lot with the training now is how do we handle those customers? What can we do proactively before they become that intolerable customer, so to speak?

And the other is consistency, and they'll talk about that a little bit later on is that companies do clearly need to define what the vision is, what their values are, and what their expectations, because they find that when they're not, businesses that they'll be highly recommended one way, and then social media will destroy them the following way. And it may well be due to something that it could be easily fixed if they had a clear vision and expectations were set beforehand. So, they're probably the three areas that they're finding that's impacting the businesses across in Australia.

Customer Behaviour 

Me: I found it interesting when you mentioned that the customer becomes rude and as a result of that you find that a lot of people are leaving from the customer experience professions because their tolerance becomes very low because of how they're treated. I don't think I've ever heard anyone put it in that perspective before but one of the things I wanted to find out from you, as it relates to that specific point, do you believe that the customer becoming rude is a behavioural issue that is maybe cultural in terms of just their mannerism? Or do you think it is a catalyst as a result of how they're being treated, their needs not being met, communication not being consistent and clear and that propels them into that state of being very intolerable and aggravated and rude to the customer service providers. What has your experience been there?

Michelle stated that that's a really good question. People's expectations have changed, we now have a world that everything is instant and we see so often that they now believe it's all about me, we see that on the roads, when people are driving the road, they won't let you in or they believe that they should be at the front of the queue, because they've got a busy day. And it's all this self-entitlement, now, this certainly is not all our customers and unfortunately, they are the minority, but they make the most noise and they impact the most on our beautiful people that are providing the service. 

So, it is this feeling of self-entitlement. We've found with those couple of years of shutdown, in particular, that the people that were coming out of that they are still learning that they have to wait for service, that they have to understand things are a little bit slower. And she thinks that's what's really key is when that is shared with them, it's communicating, it's not making excuses from the company, but the company sharing with them, she’s seen them in the USA, small signs that we're short on staff, sorry, for the delays, we are wanting to provide you the best customer service. Now, she knows not everybody reads signs, but just that little bit of a pre warning may assist with some customers, but those ones that are totally intolerable, we're going to handle them because that's just part of what service is, but it doesn't mean we have to accept rude behaviour. 

And she thinks that's where it has to be very clearly communicated to the frontline team that management or the owner of the business won't accept that and will intervene when a customer has overstepped the comments perhaps, or their interactions with that service provider or is impacting with other customers, there’s not a lot, there's only a few, but they do find, and what they're finding there more and more is that these people just believe that they're entitled to have this service right now and don't worry about anybody else, which is disappointing.

What are Some of the Benefits that Derived from Market Research (Mystery Shopping) 

Me: Now, a big part of what you do, based on what we read in your bio was also mystery shopping. And I'm sure you do mystery shopping across many different industries, have you found that the mystery shopping helps to identify to organisations what their key pain points are? And as listeners of this podcast, if there was like a business owner, or maybe a senior person in a customer success or customer experience department that would be listening to this episode, and they themselves are considering doing such an activity for 2024, what would be your advice? What are some of the benefits that you think will be derived?

Because the intervention itself of mystery shopping can be a very expensive venture, why would you recommend to a CEO or someone who is in customer success or customer experience, to recommend to their organization to invest in something like this? Because I find a lot of organizations tend to, they may want to do it, they hear about it, but then they're not able to connect the dots in terms of the financial gain that they're going to get from a report like that, or data submitted from that and how does that translate into transforming the experience that it will increase the dollar value in their organization, when they look at their bottom line at the end of the year, there's more money, not less money.

Michelle stated another great question, and she loves mystery shopping. When she first created their own proprietary software, which is over two decades now, she never wanted it to be defined or catch people out in it. A lot of frontline team members, as well as owners of businesses think mystery shopping is all about finding the faults in your business. She’s always changed the narrative around that, that they're looking for the shining lights in your business, as well as where there are opportunities. 

So, if she can just give a quick analogy of the reports that they do is both objective and subjective. Now, you have to have those both areas in mystery shopping. There is no point in just having a score, because a number means absolutely nothing unless it has got qualitative research behind it. 

Now, quantitative research which gives you those stats, it's important because you've got that number then to go, “Alright, we've got 85 this month, and what can we put in place now to rise that number.” But you want to understand, how did you get that number of 85, so for the listeners, she would say first off, break up the report, what they're going to look up into four key areas, the service, image, marketing, and compliance or regulations that they may have in their particular industry, or even their own personal regulations or compliance in their own business. 

And then when looking at those questions, it's both looking at them that purely objective questioning where, are they wearing their name badge? Yes or no. But then it could be, you'd have a number of questions about that actual service, did they take an audit? Did they use your name? Did they offer you an option there all those objective questions, which are fantastic for those scores, that you can measure that data every month, or how often you do it. But then it's about that qualitative information. Because, at times, we could have an experience where the register doesn't work, or there could be an issue with the actual process of delivering a particular product, but it is how it's handled by that frontline person, or that owner of that business that brings in that subjective experience. And that's what's absolutely key. 

So, having those questions in there, and that ability to make a comment on those questions. And it could be, the register was not able to be used, it was broken down, so instead of the staff member just shrugging their shoulders and saying, “Oh, can't serve you it doesn't work.” 

What did they do? Did they do they offer for you to take a little bit longer to walk around the store? Do they ask you to come in and having a sit down, we can serve you the coffee, and then payment can be a little bit less? What was those ways that you and your team connected with that person who's coming to your business, to ensure that they have this amazing experience, even when things aren't working the 100%. 

So, yes, mystery shopping can be expensive, it doesn't always have to be but a couple of tips, is you're investing in your team, this is not about catching people out, it is about those shining lights that show to others how wonderful, what happens when the service is provided, the impact that it has, and also gives you the opportunity to get some very important and information back from your customers. It also shows you where there are friction points, those pain points where the length of time is too long. She does a lot of research in multi generations, as you may well be aware in particularly Gen Z, they're looking for that frictionless point, they don't want to be held up in queues, they want to be able to just order and the foods delivered, for example.  

So, mystery shopping identifies where those friction points are, and also identify those areas that are working really well. Or perhaps there's an area that it's working, but what can we do to step it up. So, she’s going to say mystery shopping as an investment. 

And she’s had same clients for over two decades, and the data that she has on them, particularly one client, they started off with one business, they have now gone into seven different businesses, they've reached out into other areas of business and different forms of industry. And all because they've always measured what they've done the month before with the mystery shopping. So, she can understand that some businesses may feel it's an expense, but it is truly an investment in their business, as well as in their team.

App, Website or Tool that Michelle Absolutely Can’t Live Without in Her Business

When asked about an online resource that she can’t live without in her business, Michelle shared that  it's funny the technology you always think it's great when it's working, but when it doesn’t, it can be frustrating. One of the beautiful tools that has really come out is Canva. And it's an Australian girl who started and it is now worldwide where you can create anything, it is absolutely beautiful. You can create posters, you can just create words and everything just looks wonderful. She suggest to the listeners to have a look at that Canva is really good. 

The online platform she uses for all her online training is Kajabi and she found that out through coming to the US, she comes quite often throughout the years. And she loves that for an online platform, and she suppose, as an app, and what we're all getting into now many of us is this Chat GPT, how to use it wisely. But she’s found it's good, you can put the information in there, ask it to give you some ideas, you don't take them all but it's certainly a way of well, “How do we make this perhaps what I said a bit more compelling in the written word.” But yes, they'd be her three Canva, Kajabi and Chat GPT.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Michelle

When asked about books that has had an impact, Michelle shared that she’s an avid reader. She loves reading and self-development in business she thinks is absolutely key. But most recently, when she says most recently, it was the start of last year, she was given the book, The Gap and The Gain: The High Achievers’ Guide to Happiness, Confidence, and Success by Dan Sullivan and Dr. Benjamin Hardy, phenomenal book, have you read that book? 

Me: I have not. 

Michelle stated that she just got it here in front of her. It's got the High Achievers’ Guide to Happiness, Competence and Success. And when you go through the book, the both of them speak about and many of us know that Dan Sullivan is the founder of some strategic coaches. Too often in life, we look at that gap, instead of looking at what we've gained. She always say to her clients, those wanting to build their membership and they start off at zero. And they say, “Oh, you know, we wanted to achieve 100 new members by the end of the week.” And when they get to 50, when she sees them, they go, “Oh, we only got 50.” And all they're worried about is the 50 that they didn't get, but she said, and this is what comes from the sport is, but look at the gain, you started off with zero, and now you've got 50, that's fantastic. 

And honestly, it is a book that changed her whole course and her business. And she’s saying that with hand on heart, it is a book that not only has changed her business, but also her life and her thoughts in too often we spend in that gap and not enough time again and how to do that. And they've written some further books both of them together. 

The other was Who Not How: The Formula to Achieve Bigger Goals Through Accelerating Teamwork, which is fantastic. And of course, there's another book, it's just come out about 10xing and how to 10x instead of 2x. So, her absolute favourite is The Gap and The Gain. So, whether it's book four, which she loves on Audible, is just as interesting and informative.

What Michelle is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that she’s excited about right now, Michelle shared that she was thinking about this question. And as she said a moment ago, she truly believes in self-development in business. She has ensured that she has spent a lot of time in the US doing multiple courses, also in Australia, in Europe and Asia, bringing that information back to her team and to her clients.

So, at the moment, what they're very excited about is planning well in advance for 2024 in how they can deliver their programs even further outreach to their regional areas in Australia, and also globally. So, that's exciting for them because when they develop the business, it develops and rises their whole team, I've got her beautiful researcher, she also has another who does a lot of the researching so by developing new niches, new areas globally, it will certainly provide them more work.

Where Can We Find Michelle Online

LinkedIn – www.linkedin.com/in/michellepascoe

Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/MichellePascoeVIP

Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/michelle.pascoe/

Website – www.michellepascoe.com

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Michelle Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that she tends to revert to, Michelle stated that she does and it was one that she actually created herself, many years ago after doing a course about choice theory and meeting different people from very diverse backgrounds over the years, is that “We choose the life that we truly deserve, not the life that others choose for us.” And she lives by that. And she shares that with every client that she comes in contact with because not everybody sees the potential that they have inside them. And there are so many people that impact others on their thoughts and the decisions in their life. But yes, choose the life that you truly deserve, not the one that others choose for you.

Me: Brilliant. Alright, Michelle. Well, thank you so much for coming on our podcast today and taking time out of your schedule to kind of share about customer experience and what are some of the key things that organizations can gain from really focusing on this aspect of their business. Also tapping into the key things that market research, specifically mystery shopping can do for a business regardless of the industry. And of course, to turn the perspective of how organizations may look at mystery shopping more from who are the shining persons that will be identified from the research and any opportunities for improvement….I thought that was really cool. So, thank you so much again, and we wish you all the very best. And thank you for joining us.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

•     The Gap and The Gain: The High Achievers’ Guide to Happiness, Confidence, and Success by Dan Sullivan and Dr. Benjamin Hardy

•     Who Not How: The Formula to Achieve Bigger Goals Through Accelerating Teamwork by Dan Sullivan and Dr. Benjamin Hardy

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners 

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty.

This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately!

This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others.

Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

Joanna Hagelberger is currently the Vice President of Customer Success at Rhoads Online, a technology provider of compliance solutions to the insurance industry. Her entire professional career has been in the insurance industry with the last 20 years in insurtech. Joanna is passionate about the customer experience, particularly the benefit a strong account management program can bring to an organization and its customers. 

In her current role, Joanna is responsible for ensuring customers and prospects are having the best possible experience with Rhoads. Joanna received her BS and MS in Communication from Florida State University, she is a licenced insurance agent in the state of Michigan and she is a certified Executive Coach. 

Questions

• Could you share with our listeners a little bit about your journey? How it is that you got from where you were to where you are today?

• Can you tell our listeners a little bit about Rhoads Online? What is Rhoads Online? And what value do they bring to their customer base?

• Could you tell us maybe three things you've seen as recurring themes that come across being more proactive than reactive in the space that you operate in to ensure that you're able to maximize on customer success?

• What are maybe one or two things that you believe as an organisation, especially in the insurance industry, specifically, you would need to be focusing on to ensure that you're setting yourself apart and truly giving the customer more than they expect, and kind of living to what you were saying, trying to predict their needs before they know they even need it.

• Could you share with our listeners, what's the one online tool, app or website that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

• Could you also share with our listeners, any books that you've read, it could be a book that you've read recently, or even one you read a very long time ago, but it has had a great impact on you.

• Now Joanna, can you also share with us what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

• Where can listeners find you online?

• Before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off track? This quote kind of helps you to get back on track. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Joanna’s Journey

Me: Could you share with our listeners a little bit about your journey? How it is that you got from where you were to where you are today?

Joanna shared that she can tell you that no one as a little girl dreams or as a kid dreams someday I'm going to be working in insurance. So, most people decided, stumble into it somewhere along the way. And hers was a work study position when she was in college as a part of her financial aid, she was given a job working in the Employee Benefits Office at Florida State. And that ended up taking her into their insurance office where they administered their insurance, how their employees got insurance.

So, when she got out of grad school, and was looking for a job, she had this insurance knowledge of how the insurance space worked and that landed her with a position of a company that is today known as Willis Towers Watson. It was well as Willis at the time and became just Willis last year, and Madonna. And now has added new names again. So, that has taken her down a path, she’s worked for insurance brokers, insurance agencies, insurance companies, third party administrators, she’s been on all different sides of the business. 

And about 20 years ago, she had the opportunity to jump to the other side of the business, and work in insurance technology, where insurance historically has been a very paper based, manual, difficult industry where everything is delivered by paper, every form is completed with pen and paper. And this company was working to build automation with insurance producers, the people that actually sell the insurance, the insurance agencies and the insurance companies, and how they communicate with the State Departments of Insurance. And that's pretty much how she ended up where she is today, just have grown over time.

What is Rhoads Online?

Me: Can you tell our listeners a little bit about Rhoads Online? What is Rhoads Online? And what value do they bring to their customer base?

Joanna shared that just as she said that that insurtech that she went to 20 years ago, Rhoads is in that same space. So, what they do is help insurance companies and agencies predominantly connect those insurance producers, the people that are selling insurance, get them contracted, and make sure that they are appropriately licensed and credentialed to sell the insurance that they're selling before they do. Because if an individual sells a policy and they are not properly credentialed, they don't have all of the licenses contracts, and the insurance company hasn't told the state that that person is selling for them, then the insurance company gets in trouble. So, making that all of those ducks are in a row and everything is in order, it keeps the insurance company off the front page of the Wall Street Journal and allows them to sell compliantly and make sure that the consumer is protected when they do it.

Being Proactive Than Reactive to Ensure You Maximize on Customer Success 

Me: Now, a big part of what you do is customer success. And of course, that's typically ensuring that the client is getting exactly what they want and desire. Not sure if this is a call that you made, or it's just something that you live by as a mantra, but it states, “You can't just be reactive, you have to be proactive, predicting their needs before they even realize it.” So, could you tell us maybe three things you've seen as recurring themes that come across being more proactive than reactive in the space that you operate in to ensure that you're able to maximize on customer success?

Joanna shared that she thinks this is in any industry, it's not specific to what she does. But customer service to her is something that is tactical and reactive. If you think about customer service, and customer service is something we all interact with, probably with a little bit of dread and we hope that it's a good experience that we're opening a Chatbot or we're sending in an email or opening a ticket, or calling an 800 number. And we hope that for whatever reason we're calling that number that whatever the issue is, is resolved. We want it to be resolved quickly and painlessly and to whatever satisfaction we hoped it would be.  

And again, it's very reactive, it is in response to whatever I as the consumer is bringing forward to that company, or as the customer, if it's B2B or B2C, it doesn't matter, customer service is about fixing that one little thing that the person calling in has announced needs fixing.

Where customers success to her is, is the opposite of that. It isn't reactive, and it isn't tactical. The important thing is that we're being proactive, that we're getting in front of the customer, and being intentional about having strategic conversations. Because as the company is moving forward, and as they're growing, they want to make sure that that path forward and that growth is aligned with the path forward and the growth of their customers. 

If their development team builds a brand new piece of functionality, and no one uses it, then that has been a waste of time of their development team number one, but also the opportunity costs that's lost, because they didn't build something that their customers would have really liked, what they would have used and what they would have needed. So, it is all about being proactive, and being strategic. And what she means by strategic is simply looking further ahead. It's not what's happening in the moment right now, it's where are we going together and making sure that those things stay aligned as they continue to move forward. 

Because what her goals are and what she’s trying to accomplish in six months, a year, three years, five years, those are going to keep changing as time moves forward. So, making sure that they keep having those conversations, leaving those lines of communication open, sharing what's going on in the industry, and what's going on in their customers’ business, as well as what's going on in her business, that's how they all move forward and stay aligned.

Organization Setting Themselves Apart and Giving Customers More Than They Expect

Me: Now, you've been an insurance for over two decades, Joanna, and I'm sure you've seen lots of ups and downs, hills and gullies kind of thing. But in your own experience, especially as we're moving forward embarking on a new calendar year, what are maybe one or two things that you believe as an organization, especially in the insurance industry, specifically, you would need to be focusing on to ensure that you're setting yourself apart and truly giving the customer more than they expect, and kind of living to what you were saying, trying to predict their needs before they know they even need it.

Joanna stated that she really thinks the big thing, especially in the insurance industry, is that the Googles and Amazons of the world have set an expectation for across all industries, that technology is easy to use that “I should be able to get the answers to my questions with the click of a button and with the phone that's in my hand, I shouldn't have to go to the horror, a real computer, I should be able to from a mobile device, be able to do anything that I should need to be able to do with any business partner of mine from my phone.” So, she really thinks that that expectation is where the insurance industry needs to focus. 

There's so much talk about AI and Blockchain and Chatbots and all of the magical technology that's out there. But if we can't meet the basic table stakes of being able to get a quote for insurance from her phone, then that insurance company will not be able to succeed. If she is standing on the side of the road and I live in Michigan in certain times of the year and they hit deer, it happens and if she’s on the side of the road because she’s just hit a deer or had any kind of an accident. If she can’t pull out her phone and initiate that claim from her phone, she’s not going to stay with that insurance company because they haven't met her need when she needed them. So, being able to meet those basic needs from core technology is where the insurance industry needs to focus right now.

App, Website or Tool that Joanna Absolutely Can’t Live Without in Her Business

When asked about an online resource that she cannot live without in her business, Joanna shared that she has a couple. Because of what she does, the CRM that they use, that's how she keeps her pulse on what's going on in their business. So, they happen to use Salesforce. But she’s used HubSpot in the past, and there are other great CRMs out there. But the most important thing is having one central repository to be able to see everything that's going on to the lifecycle of your customer. If you're working in customer experience and you can't see what's going on with your customers, and you're trying to use an Excel spreadsheet or some other form of technology, there's just no way to get that 360 degree view.

But personally, within customer success, there is an amazing website called kapta.com. And kapta.com is a technology that integrates with your CRM, not what she’s endorsing here, she’s sure it's great, but she’s not actually used that technology, but the number of resources that Kapta has on their website to help people that work in key account management, whatever form of that that is you work in, they have so many resources available to help account managers be successful with their customers, and to help organisations and leaders know how to help their account managers be successful. So, Kapta is amazing. 

And then specifically in her industry, insurtech Connect, ITC has a six things newsletter that is just incredible. It keeps you informed of everything that could be going on in the insurance industry that has anything to do with technology. And it's an interesting read for anyone.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Joanna

When asked about books that have had a great impact her, Joanna shared that there are two that she finds herself going back to over and over and over again. And the first one is Start with Why: How Great Leaders Inspire Everyone to Take Action by Simon Sinek, it helps from an organizational perspective, as well as on an individual perspective. Whether you're working with customers, with employees, “Knowing the Why of why you do what you do.” 

And a common theme in her world is, it's not about you. It's not about her, it's not about what she’s doing. It's about the customer, and it's about the employee and why they do what they do. And if we can be other focus and know why people are motivated to do the things that they do. And to know what our Why is and why we get up each morning and why we're helping our customers and why these things matter. She’s listened to Simon's podcast, and it's just brilliant. And that all started with Start with Why for her.

The second one is a book called Unleashed: The Unapologetic Leader’s Guide to Empowering Everyone Around You, it's by Anne Morriss and Frances Frei. And it's all about empowerment, and when you're working in account management or customer success or customer service, this is a tough job, it's a tough job where the people in this space spend a lot of time getting yelled at oftentimes, and they're trying to make the customer's world a better place. And when you can come from a perspective of empowering those people to be successful, to have the ability to make the decisions that makes the customer's world a better place, it's better for the customer, it's better for the company, and it's better for the human that gets to make those decisions. If they sit there all day every day saying, “I'm sorry, I don't know. But I'll check on that and get back to you.” That's a very difficult space to be in. So, being able to empower people is their greatest version of themselves, it's really powerful and it's really a game changer.

What Joanna is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something she’s really excited about, Joanna shared that this year, she got the opportunity to spend some time really diving into the Enneagram. And if the listeners aren't familiar with the Enneagram, it's a personality assessment type of profile that looks at why people behave the way that they do. So, Enneagram have types, you do an assessment, it gives you a direction on what your type may be. And then you do some more homework and you confirm that that is your type. 

And Beatrice Chestnut, wrote a book called The Complete Enneagram: 27 Paths to Greater Self-Knowledge. And she’s really had the opportunity to pour into that and what she loves about it is it doesn't matter what part of your life you're looking at, whether it's about your employees, your boss, your co-worker, any other co-workers, your spouse, your kids, family members, customers, it doesn't matter, being able to get insight into what charges people up, what gets them to behave the way that they do.

And then when they're doing well, why you might see some other characteristics where when they're feeling stressed, or things are difficult, you can look for other traits that might come in. It has been incredibly insightful, and she feels like reading Beatrice's book has been a college level course on this. But the amount of insight that it's given into people.

And then the other thing that is maybe a little bit more approachable to people rather than reading a giant textbook is Ian Cron has a podcast called Typology that is just fascinating, where he talks to people with different Enneagram types, and about how they interact with the world. And it's just fascinating and it's been so much fun to learn this year.

Where Can We Find Joanna Online

LinkedIn – Joanna-Hagelberger

Website – www.rhoadsonline.com

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Joanna Uses 

When asked about a quote or saying that she tends to revert to, Joanna shared that she does have, Maya Angelou, which she’s sure many of our guests have quoted, because she's very quotable. This is how she hears it in her head is that, “People will forget what you said and did but people will never forget how you made them feel.” And she feels like when we're dealing, this is all about customer experience. And if we can just remember that how we make our customers feel and how they experience us makes all the difference in the world. 

Me: Amazing. Thank you so much, Joanna, for taking time out of your very busy schedule, and hopping on this podcast with us today and sharing all of the great insights that you've learned and just best practices that you've taken on as an individual as a customer service practitioner in your own right, especially in your industry. And just looking at some opportunities that we can strengthen, building out our customer success teams and actually giving customers as you had stated earlier, giving them what they need before they even know that they need it and I thought that was really brilliant. So, thank you so much again.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

•     Start with Why: How Great Leaders Inspire Everyone to Take Action by Simon Sinek

•     Unleashed: The Unapologetic Leader’s Guide to Empowering Everyone Around You by Anne Morriss and Frances Frei

•     The Complete Enneagram: 27 Paths to Greater Self-Knowledge by Beatrice Chestnut

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