Dr. Kaliym Islam is a former Wall Street executive where for over 20 years he led global learning businesses. New York Times best-selling author, Kevin Kurse (The e-Learning Guru describes him as a fresh voice among the usual author Guru crowd…, “who” …brings the credibility of someone who makes a living DOING, rather than TELLING.
Teams under his direction have been: 1. Named learning elite organizations by Chief Learning Officer Magazine. 2. Won International Society for Technical Communication (STC) awards for innovative learning content. 3. Cited by HR Futurist Josh Bersin as best practice learning organizations.
He's written thousands of industry and academic articles and a number of books that focus on leadership, strategy, organizational development, and training and development. His most recent book, The 12 Inch Rule of Leadership: Proven Strategies for Career Success highlights how leaders in industry, government, higher education, k-12 and entrepreneurship utilized a common framework (The 12 Inch Rule) to achieve career success.
He's currently an Assistant Professor of Practice at Southern Illinois University where he helps develop tomorrow's educational leaders.
Questions
Highlights
Dr. Islam’s Journey
Dr. Islam shared that he looks at his journey, he’s got to go ahead and cite his inner Steve Jobs, you can't connect the dots forward, you can only connect them backwards. So, if he looks at his journey, he would sort of summed up in two words or two phrases, innovation and taking chances.
So came out of the military, spent some time in the military after he screwed up in college for the first time and wanted to change the world. So, his plan was to change the world one child at a time.
So, he went into K-12 education and he started working, at that time, poor community of Bushwick, Brooklyn is now a destination place but at that time it wasn't. It was one of those neighborhoods where you see the car panned by, you see the burnt-out buildings and graffiti on the wall and you hear the statistics about single mothers and drugs and AIDS and these types of things.
And what he did, he started teaching school there and he brought his military background, he brought his college fraternal background, and his love for technology into the classroom. And at that time, his customers were essentially the students and the parents and the administration. So, they put all those things together, being innovative and taking chances. And then students who really had not been successful in their academic careers, but suddenly started to achieve success. They had tremendous improvement. I leveraged that success and started writing curriculum, helping teachers use technology in the classroom.
So, he left his technology background, he left the classroom because he realized that in the classroom, he can only help probably 30 students at a time but if he was in a more of an administrative position, he could impact policy which could impact more students. So, he took a job as an assistant principal at an alternative high school in Manhattan, overseeing their technology and basically migrating them from at that time was an Apple Mac environment into a PC environment.
So, his interests started getting more and more toward technology and how technology can help people learn. Well, it was about that time that his wife informed him that the salary of a school teacher did not afford her the life that she felt that she deserved.
So, he started looking at other opportunities and he actually went to Wall Street, initially to do some technology stuff and they were actually deploying a new technology system. And he was in a meeting, the teacher in him never left so he asked what was a dumb question back then, he said, “Well, what's going to happen on Monday morning, when you deploy a brand-new email system on Friday afternoon?”
And they said, “Well, we're going to get a lot of calls to the help desk, and there’s going to be problems.” And he said, “So are you positioned to support that?” Well, they said, “Well, look, No, we're not.” And he said, “Well, what should we do?” He said, “You should train people, you should give them an education program. What you should do is, rather than teach everyone at the same time, you rotate and bring one department into the training, while they're in the training, you deploy the software to their desktop. So right after having been trained on it, they can use it right away.”
Next question was who can develop the training?
He was a school teacher, had a degree in instructional design. So, he went home that weekend, wrote the training program, and they deployed and it was very successful.
Fast forward a few months later, they were deploying another software system, same situation occurred. He was in a meeting, they said they're going to deploy it, he asked a dumb question, “What's going to happen when you don't train people?” Same scenario occurred. He went home, built the training program and did the training, they had success. And then they had a third software system that they were deploying, everyone looked at him and said, “Kaliym, can you do the training?” He said, “Absolutely not. No way. No way, Jose.”
And they said, “Well, why not? You did it before.” He said, Yeah, but we're playing whack a mole here. We're just reacting, we need a more strategic approach to go ahead to doing this training. He literally went home that weekend that was refused writer, he wrote a strategic training plan for the company with, of course, him at the head of this technical training department. He walked in on Monday morning, gave the president of the company his proposal, he looked at him and said, “Well, start hiring your staff.” So, that was his full foray into sort of corporate supervision and corporate training.
So, they had a lot of success there, he had responsibility for employees. And then they realized that what they were doing for employees could be extended to clients. And so, they said, “Okay, Kaliym, you now have responsibility for customer training.”
And when he looked at the landscape, he realized that it really didn't make a lot of sense to build a staff of 50, 60, 100s of trainers to train customers, because when the need and you got to look back that was sort of late 90s, where people were just learning how to use Microsoft Word, learning how to use Excel, and all these other productivity programs.
So, they realized that okay, once everyone is taught, they don't need all these trainers. So again, in the spirit of innovation and taking chances, they started working with what at that time was called CD ROM training. So, they'd actually program the training on a CD ROM, you would send it out to the various locations and that's how people would take their training. So, he left there after doing some good stuff there, another company asked him to come in and oversee or bring in technology.
So that's what they did, they brought in technology for another firm. He just basically kept on sort of ascending up the ladder, and all these experiences, whether it was bringing in a new technology or different approaches or bringing in learning management systems. He always wanted to help people, so he would write about it in industry magazines and then he got started being asked to speak about things like that.
And at some point, after a bunch of years, and this is something that he’s neglected to say after his wife let him know that a school teacher didn't make the money that afforded her the life that she thought she deserved. Dr. Islam leaving education K through 12 education broke his mother's heart because she thought he had a gift. And he promised her, he said, “Mom, I promise I'll go back at some point.”
So, after 20 years of doing that, and having a lot of success, he said, it's time for him to fulfil his promise to his mother. And he left corporate America, and started doing what his mother asked him to do was going back into education. So, he took on a job as a professor at Southern Illinois University and opened up a small boutique educational consulting firm and now he’s sitting here having a great conversation with Yanique.
Summarizing Dr. Islam’s Book – The 12 Inch Rule of Leadership: Proven Strategies for Career Success and Who is it Really Targeted Towards
Me: Your book, The 12 Inch Rule of Leadership: Proven Strategies for Career Success, could you share with our listeners what that whole framework is about? I'm aware of the fact that it consists of time value, best performance of duty, perseverance, the worth of example, the virtue of patience, talent, expression, economic wisdom, the value of character, kindly attitudes and pleasure in work, and the worth of the organization and the dignity of simplicity. So, it's a lot but could you summarize for us in the best way possible, just for our listeners to get an idea of what this framework entails and who is it really targeted towards? Is it just for persons who are new and emerging leaders or people who've been in leadership roles for years? Is this something they could take on to maybe sharpen their leadership skills?
Dr. Islam shared that it's certainly something that anyone can take on to sharpen their leadership skills. So, the background with The 12 Inch Rule, he is a member of a historically black fraternity or sorority, Phi Beta Sigma. And he’s sure that all fraternities and sororities have these types of things where essentially, there are things that you have to learn to become a member, things you have to memorize.
And one of the things that he had to memorize when he was going through his process was The 12 Inch Rule, and that was close to 40 years ago. And like you said, The 12 Inch Rule time value, best performance of duty, perseverance, the worth of example, the virtue of patience, kind of expression, economic wisdom, the value of character, kindly attitudes, pleasure in work, the worth of organization, the dignity of simplicity, he can't tell you what he had for breakfast this morning. But after close to 40 years, he can rattle those things off like it's nothing. And what he started to observe over the years is that folks who joined this organization fell into two camps, those who, like him could remember it and rattle it off and those who would say, “Hey, that was a long time ago, I don't remember it.”
And what he observed was that the ones who remembered this rule, and these principles, the 12 principles of the rule, their career trajectory seem to be steep. Whereas the ones that didn't remember that I said it was a long time ago, not that they all didn't have successful careers, but their trajectory wasn't as steep.
So, the academic in him try to understand why is this happening. So, he actually set out to do an academic study, his plan was to do research and get this published in a peer reviewed journal to solidify his academic chops. Now, after about the third interview, it blew his mind. He said, oh, my God, the stories that he’s hearing from these members in terms of what they did, how they applied the principles and how it led to career success was mind boggling. And he said, “Well, I can't leave this in an academic journal, there's got to be more of a wider distribution of this information, because it can help a lot of people.” So, they became agile and they basically stopped on a dime and said, “Okay, listen, we're not going to write this in a language that's geared toward academics, we're going to write this in a language that's geared toward playing people who are trying to reach their full potential in terms of their leadership potential, who want to be able to communicate their value, who are tired of being looked over for promotion and who are trying to become better as leaders.” And that's what they did.
And they interviewed 14 different members in a variety of industries, from K-12, to higher education, to entrepreneurs, to people who are working in financial services, people who are working in government.
The tips and tricks and recommendations that they put out there was helpful to him, it reminded him of a lot, it taught him a lot, it helped him become a better leader. And he knows it's going to help other people.
Just tell one story. His son, he’s got a 21-year-old, who he can never get to read anything, ever. In fact, when he was a kid, he tried to pay him to read books, wouldn't happen. He picked this book up and said “Dad, wow, this is pretty good, this is going to be helpful for me, some of the recommendations that they're talking about in the book, I can use on my job.”
He gave it to some of his college friends. Now these are after millennials, Gen Z? They don't read anything, except Snapchat. But his son started sending him pictures of his friends that they were sending him pictures of them reading the book, because they were so excited by it.
So, to your question, he thinks no, it's not just the new and emerging leader, he thinks sort of old folks like him can learn from the book also. Younger folks who really haven't necessarily gotten to a position where they're supervising, he thinks they can get something out of it, he’s seen it from his son's friends. And he’s got a bunch of folks who in the middle, in between who have read the book and said, “This has really been helpful to me.”
A Breakdown of The 12 Principles
Dr. Islam shared that he’s going to do that but he wants to take a step back. So, the beauty of this is, is there are no operational definitions. So, time value, it's something you need to measure yourself by, but the fact that there's no operational definition really gives you the opportunity to apply it in a way that makes sense for you. So, time value as an as an example, it's just that valuing your time. So, if you show up late or his interpretation of it, if you show up late. Number one, you're not valuing the time of the person who you're supposed to have a meeting.
Number one, if you're not spending your time on the right things, okay, you're not valuing time. So, one of the contributors in the book, his name is Jean-Guy Lauture, and he's the Chief Learning Officer for the city of Bloomingdale or township of Bloomingdale in New Jersey. So, he tells a story about how when he showed up at the City Hall one day, and he was working on one problem, one technology problem that was happening while he was visiting.
Now, while he was there, he got wind that they had been experiencing some ransomware. So, some bad actor threw some ransomware on the computers of the township that will put a lot of other things in jeopardy. Now, the issue that he initially came to deal with was important, and that he initially expected to spend his time. But as soon as the other issue came up, he realized his time is better served addressing the ransomware issue and, on a dime, he shifted his resources. And all the people who contributed to the book have different stories about how you can value your time.
Number two is best performance of duty. It seems simple enough, but how do you do your best when you don't feel your best? That there in is the challenge. And he tells a story in the book, one of his experiences was, someone in his organization quit relatively quickly, they actually lost two levels in organization, and he had to step in, and basically perform as a technician and a project manager sort of well below his depth, out of his depth.
He’s more of a strategy guy, so that sort of level of detail really killed him. But if they didn't do a good job for the client, they were not going to take on some additional business. So, even though he hated the work, even though it was out of his depth, even though it was something he really, really, really did not like to do, he had to perform his depth, he had to perform his best at all time. So, that's just one story.
Perseverance, how do you keep fighting through when things get rough?
Me: And I think that's applicable to anybody. I mean, not even leaders, just human beings, because things don't stay easy all the time.
Dr. Islam agreed. That's the point. He tells the story in the book, there was a time when he initially came to Wall Street to do technology stuff and he was overseeing, at that time, they call it desktop support. So, this is before all this remote stuff where you can just take over someone's computer.
Back then you literally had to go to the person's desk and install the software and plug everything in. So, that was his job, he oversaw a team to do that.
And they had a project to install it in a place within financial services called the cashiers, they call it the king, that the terminology that if you're on Wall Street, because the only people that go into that department are the people that work there, they really don't get visitors.
So, if a strange person comes in, all conversation stops, it gets really quiet, and they watch as you walk across the floor. So, his job was to deploy some PCs to that organization and to do it, he had to get the blessing of the guy they call the King of the Cage, his name was Fred Quiñones, he was an executive VP there, worked his way up from the mailroom, and let everybody know that he enjoyed his position, he was the kingmaker. So, he sent an email to Fred trying to set up a meeting so they could schedule the deployment of the PCs, it went unanswered. Left a voicemail, went unanswered, so he did what he used to do back then. He would do what he calls a drive by, he would just stop by his office and start a conversation.
He walks into the cashiers and there's silence, everyone watches as he walked across the floor. And he gets to the corner office, and in front of Fred and he's got a glass office so you can see he's in there reading his newspaper, and in front of his office is his assistant, his gatekeeper, Ann Galante. And he introduced himself, and said he'd like to speak to Fred. She says, “Well, he's busy.”
Now mind you, he’s looking at the guy reading a newspaper. She says, “Well, he's busy, come back later.” So, he goes back, another email, another phone call.
He figured let him show up at a different time of day. So, he showed up maybe 12 in the afternoon, same scenario, get into the cashiers, noise stops, he walks across the hallway, or across the room, look at Fred reading his newspaper, he asked Ann if he could speak with him, “He's busy.”
So, this happened three or four times and now his boss is saying, “Hey, when are you going to get those PCs deployed?”So, he’s feeling some pressure. He said, let me just try one more time. So, he shows up again, same scenario, he’s walking back dejected and a gentleman pulls him aside.
He says, “Listen, you're disrespecting Fred. He's an important man, he's a busy man and you show up here in the middle of the day, he doesn't like it.” Fred shows up in the morning at 7:00 am, he likes jelly doughnuts and he likes his coffee sweet and light.
So, the next morning, he shows up at 6:45 am with jelly doughnuts and coffee, Fred walks in, he’s sitting outside of his office, Fred walks in and he said, “Hey, Fred, I hear you like jelly doughnuts and coffee.” He said, “Come on, Kaliym. Come on in.” He didn't even know he knew his name.
Long story short, they did the project, everything worked out well, they were successful. And at one point, during the middle of the day, he needed to meet with Fred, he couldn't wait till a 6:00 am jelly donut meeting.
So, he goes across the cashiers and by this time, no noise stops, everyone keeps working, they don't even notice him. He walks across the floor, Fred is in his office, obviously in a busy meeting, he’s looking at Ann saying, “I really need to meet Fred.”
Fred looks up, he walks out of his office, he says, “What do you need Kaliym?” He lets him know. He tells other people in the office, “I got to be with Kaliym.” And he kicks them out. So, the tide certainly changed. So, he’s walking out of the cashiers’ area and this guy Ron Kowalski, certain names you remember in your career. He says, “You know, Kaliym, most people stop after the second effort, I'm glad you kept going.” Perseverance.
The worth of example. They have Joe West and he's a Harvard trained epidemiologist in the book, and he runs a small boutique consulting firm, he happens to be African American.
And he tells a story of before the advent of the internet, we can just go online and see anyone's name, he was working on a deal with a client and things were working well. And he actually got the opportunity to go to the executive offices and meet with them.
So, he goes to the offices and Secretary puts him in the room and the executives come in and as soon as they walk in, he could see from the look on their face that they didn't expect that Dr. Joseph West from Harvard was an African American.
So, there's an awkward moment in the beginning, but then they start to make small talk and then they realize that Joe West, he likes a lot of the same things they do, he likes to golf, he likes to smoke cigars and guess what, he loves Ronald Reagan.
Long story short, Joe gets the job, his team does a phenomenal job for the client. And then the client asked him, “Hey, do you have any of the firms that are just like you who can do some other work for us?”
So, of course, Joe goes and recommends another firm, they happen to be African American also. So, he tells a story of how joyful he was when he came back to do a report for these executives and he sees the firm that he recommended in the hallway or outside by the Secretary is waiting to meet with the executives. And he believes it's because of the example that he set as a business owner and how he presented himself. The worth of example.
Next one is the virtue of patience. So, they have a story in the book, Michael Dove. And Michael Dove is an executive at PCSU, which is a financial services firm, he's actually located in St. Petersburg, Florida.
And he tells a story of how his team used to get frustrated because they would make recommendations to the executives and the executives wouldn't act on them.
And what he had to instill in his team was, if you have a good idea, that idea is going to remain good, you've got to be patient, don't discard everything that you've done, because they're going to come back around and they're going to use that idea.
So, what he did he, he made sure that anytime one of his team members made a recommendation that was rejected, that they kept all the documentation. And what they started seeing was that a lot of times they would make these recommendations and while they were initially rejected, sometime 4 or 5, 6 months later, they would be accepted.
And had they not learned to be patient, they might have gotten rid of all the documentation that was associated with some of those recommendations of those projects. And that's really about making sure folks understand what you can do, what you're capable of and sometime that's also tricky, because sometimes when you let people know what you're capable of doing, they look at it as bragging. But if you don't do it, it could cause some other issues.
In one of the organizations that he led, they had a woman who she was a documentation specialist, but she loved doing voiceovers and she did that on the side to make money.
And they were having a lot of trouble finding affordable voice over talent, they tried to outsource stuff to different countries, but the accents just didn't work out.
And he remembered one day in a skip level, he thinks was a two-down meeting, they're having some conversations about where she wants to go in her career and what she does when she's not in work and she mentioned, “Well, I do voiceovers.” “Like, wow, we need voiceover talent here for some of the work that we're doing.” So had she not spoken up and talked about what she's good at, she would never have had that opportunity, she parlayed that into a bunch of other great personal and business opportunities.
Economic wisdom. So, they have a story in the book, Nigel Coelho, and he works for the folks that make the coffee for Starbucks and these other sort of coffee houses. And he speaks to, “I always have to remember, hey, this isn't my money, this is the company's money.”
So, he has to look at it like that, he can't spend it in the wrong way. So, they had to make a decision at one point about whether they invest in a $50 million project, which was in one area versus a $30 million project, which was in another area, and the more expensive investment would have been great for his organization, but not for the company. So, using this economic wisdom, he made the decision to do what was best for the best for the company.
The value of character they have this individual, Reverend Dr. Tyree Anderson, and he tells the story of how he took over as the new Pastor of a church in Alabama. And the old Pastor would let anyone walk in at any time. He didn't want people walking in to cause disturbance with the sermon.
So, he implemented a rule that if you weren't there when the sermon started, there were certain times during the service where people could come in. And so, this was new to some of the older parishioners. So, there was a woman, when she was able to come in, they were having sort of meet and greet when he walks around and greet the new visitors, and she literally cursed him out as he was walking on the floor in the church, and he talks about how it took everything in him to maintain control and maintain good character, even though his character was being assaulted in front of everyone.
Kindly attitude. So, they have Kobina Thomas, who was an executive for UPS United Postal Services in New York. And he tells a story about how he had to let someone go but he had to do it in a way that maintained respect for the person who he was letting go and maintained respect for him.
Pleasure in work. They have a lawyer, Cedric Ashley, who is the editor of one of these legal associations, a Quarterly Journal. And he speaks to the importance of finding something in work that gives you pleasure or else it's all agony.
And he tells a story of helping a woman who was terminated unfairly and the joy that he got from doing that, not because she compensated him, and he did get compensated well, but just to see how relieved she was when the stress of everything was happening in her life, how he was able to take that off of her shoulder and the pleasure that he got in that. And he also speaks to that what you consider pleasure in work changes over the cause of your career. So, an 18-year-old who’s going to look at it differently than a 15-year-old in the workforce.
Then we have the worth of organization. They have Will Worley who is a principal at a school in East Orange, New Jersey, and he just tells a story about just being organized and making sure everyone is on the same page and how he was able to leverage that to provide educational services to his students and his community during COVID.
And then lastly, the dignity of simplicity. So, they have Jerome Evans, and Jerome is a former National Championship for the University of Florida Gators football team. But he's also an executive at a company that sells industrial materials to big construction firms.
And he just talks about the importance of treating everyone with dignity and speaking in a way not to show us how smart you are, but speaking in a way that people get it, and how he speaks the same way to his billionaire clients as he does to the people that clean his house and how that's impacted his leadership.
So, we've got a lot of stories. But again, these principles are ones that individuals can interpret and use in a way that works for them.
App, Website or Tool that Dr. Islam Absolutely Can’t Live Without in Him Business
When asked about an online resource that he can’t live without in his business, Dr. Islam shared that Basecamp is essentially a communication tool. So, he knows a lot of companies are going to sort of agile project management tools, whether it's monday.com or Plutio or Xero, those types of things.
But Basecamp, for him is a great tool for project communication so it allows any documents, you can upload it, if there's a communication, whether it's through email, or you type it directly into Basecamp, all the communication comes there. So, for him in terms of staying organized and knowing what's going on with projects that he’s working on, clients he’s helping, Basecamp is required.
Books That Have Had the Greatest Impact on Dr. Islam
When asked about books that have had an impact, Dr. Islam shared that he’ll give a couple. So, one is Our Iceberg is Melting: Changing and Succeeding Under Any Conditions by John Kotter, phenomenal book, most people are familiar with Who Moved My Cheese. And that book is about basically show up and things have changed, so you have no choice but to react to it. Our Iceberg is Melting is a story of a colony of penguins believe it or not, and this one penguin Fred, he's friends with everybody else, but he likes to go off and learn things. He likes to dive underneath the iceberg and at some point, Fred sees a bubble in the bottom of the iceberg and it hits him, “Hey, I think our iceberg must be melting.” Now, he doesn't have a lot of evidence and from the story, Fred is really a junior person. But he's got to now convinced the entire colony of penguins that they've got to change their way of life, because if they don't, they're going to die because the iceberg is melting. And he has to do that with just a little bit of evidence that's below the iceberg that's really inconclusive.
And to him, that's the job of a leader, that you can't just focus on the here and now, you have to be looking at what's going to happen, what are some things that may cause your business to demise?
Or what are some opportunities you need to take advantage of that's going to help your organization be successful and a lot of times you don't find those things at the surface, you got to dive underneath the surface to find those things. So, that book is tremendously important to him, has been helpful.
The One Minute Manager by Kenneth Blanchard, because that's all about supervision and communication, and doing it in a way that allows you to maintain first principle, 12 Inch Rule, time value.
Another one is Strengths Based Leadership: Great Leaders, Teams, and Why People Follow by Tom Rath, so rather than forcing people to do things they don't do well, why not put them in a position where they can spend most of their time doing the things that they're naturally good at? So, those are the three that he would share.
What Dr. Islam is Really Excited About Now!
Dr. Islam shared that what I'm really, really excited about now, he’s actually has a presentation scheduled in South Carolina for a large international organization, and they're doing a session on how do you take your organization from good to great. So, he’s really psyched up about that, they've sent out a bunch of surveys to get a sense of how individuals who are going to be at this conference, how they feel about it and after looking at these surveys, they're going to be really surprised that they're not as good as they think they are. So, he’s really excited about helping them figure out, “Okay, how do we take ourselves from where we are and get to the next level?” So, he’s really looking forward.
Where Can We Find Dr. Islam Online
Company Website – www.thetrainingproacademy.com
Personal Website – www.drkaliymaislam.com
Twitter - @thetrainingpro
LinkedIn - @thetrainingproacademy
LinkedIn – Dr. Kaliym Islam
Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Dr. Islam Uses
When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Dr. Islam shared the term it comes from a poem that from Muhammad Ali is called, “Impossible is nothing.”
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Questions
Highlights
Shep’s Journey
Me: So, I'm going to piggyback off of your last statement, “It's great to be back” because your new book is called “I'll be back.” And so, could you share a little bit about the book, what inspired you to write this book? How can this book help organizations? What are the core pillars or themes that the book is built on? Just give us in your own words what it's all about?
Shep shared that the full title is, I'll Be Back: How to Get Customers to Come Back Again & Again. And he joked about the accent, but whenever people say I'll be back, they kind of tried to do that Terminator, Arnold Schwarzengger impression.
And originally, when he started writing the book, he hadn't even thought about that, the tie into the Terminator movie and then about three hours in the starting his outline, he’s going “Yeah, I'll be back. I bet I can play off of that.” So, while it really doesn't have anything to do with the Terminator, he does mention it a few times and the goal is to get your customers to say, I'll be back and you want them to not only say it, you want them to actually do it.
So, there's all kinds of tips, tactics, ideas, and strategies just for the idea of getting your customers to come back and understanding the difference between repeat customers, loyal customers, how to create a more customer focused culture that delivers that experience that gets customers to come back, so it's really about that.
And the really cool thing is, he believes, even with this crazy COVID variant going around, the Delta, he gets the feeling that a lot of the world is starting to feel like they're coming back. So, there's a double message in there that he didn't even anticipate was going to happen.
The Concept of Being Nice: The Behavior or Personality of a Customer Service Employee Versus the Technical Side
Me: Now you mentioned in the book, the concept of being nice. The behaviour or personality of a customer service employee versus the technical side, I wanted you to expand on that for us on what is the importance of that? And what does it really mean to be nice?
Shep stated that being nice is a foundational concept and there's a story behind it that's pretty funny. The idea behind it was, he was asked to do a speech and he was the closing keynote speaker, the last speaker of the day, he had to end exactly on time, because these people had to go to another event and they were all being picked up by buses. So, his client said, no matter what happens, you finish on time.
And ultimately, the speakers ahead of him went longer and longer and longer, and by the time it was his time to speak, there was two minutes left, not the 40 minutes that he was supposed to do. So, he said to the client, “Don't worry, I've got this.” And he gave him this weird look but he walked on stage and the first thing he said was, “Thank you for that wonderful round of applause. I realized that we have to be out of here in less than two minutes. And I promised everybody, the client especially that that would happen. So, we're going to start over and I'm going to give you the shortest customer service speech in the world.”
So, he’s introduced quickly, the applause is here, he’s now standing center stage. Are you ready? Here it goes. Be nice. Then he started to walk off stage and the audience, he stopped halfway through and he goes, “I know it's pretty easy, isn't it.” But think about it for just a moment, he’s still got about a minute or so left.
So let me tell you about being nice. Being nice is foundational, it's fundamental. If you're in a restaurant and they have great food, but the server is so mean to you, you're never coming back, it's that simple. But I want you to realize that being nice isn't always easy, it's simple, but it's not easy.
And you need to think about it because there's going to be times that you're going to be distracted that you're going to be busy that a customer or an internal customer, one of your own team members is going to come and talk to you and you're going to be interrupted, and you're going to be a little snappy, you can't do that.
Foundationally, you must be nice. Now, nothing's changed. He always joked about nothing's changed in customer service and they talked about that in the book. But really, that's a fundamental, people don't want to be treated the wrong way, they want to feel appreciated, they want to feel like it's a place that wants to do business with them.And if you aren't at least nice, well, think about you don't want to put yourself behind just because you weren't doing something as simple as being friendly and nice.
And by the way, they surveyed over 1000 consumers, and one of the most important top three qualities they want in dealing with somebody related to the areas of customer service, sales, whatever, is that they want somebody number one that's knowledgeable and number two, that's nice.
Me: So nice is like, good morning. Nice is, how are you doing today? Nice is the softer side of your personality.
Shep agreed and stated that it's just a soft skill and it is exactly that it is a skill. And sometimes you need to work on that skill, you need to be remembered, and it's a little bit of a smile, it's a little bit of a friendly attitude. And when you combine those together, that's what your customers want and expect from you. Doesn't that sound so simple.
And by the way, they don't spend a lot of time on this in the book, but it's important, he talked about foundation and really what is the underpinning of all the experience you want your customers to have.
And even if you're in the business of an eCommerce company that it's almost all automated, you still have to create this feeling that you're friendly, it's the images, it's the simplicity of how the website works and if they ever do, in fact, call you, if the customer ever does call you, it's how they're treated.
In a B2B environment, maybe business to business, they say is different than B2C and the reality of it is, it's not much different today, because your B2B customers are comparing you to the best service experiences they've ever had. And that could include a retail store, it could include Amazon, it could include a restaurant, it doesn't matter, it's the best service they've had and that's what they expect from everybody.
Me: What if you have an organization where it's just not in the character of the person that's interfacing with the customers to be nice. Generally speaking, in their own personal lives, they're just not nice people, they have a very unpleasant countenance, they're not very welcoming, or approachable, and you feel very uncomfortable around them because of their demeanour and your facial expressions. How do you get that person to be nice?
Shep stated that first of all, he wouldn't have hired that person. So, part of creating a culture that's customer focus is making sure the right people are on the bus and that means you've got to hire right. Now, there are some people, they can still be nice, but they're not cut out for being on the front line, great. Put them in another job somewhere else in the organization, they still have to be nice. But again, being introverted may be awkward for somebody, and we don't want to put anybody in that situation.
But he'll also add that if you've got somebody in the warehouse and their job is to pack boxes with product based on what the customer orders, and by the way, this is a little bit off of the concept of being nice, but that person has a great responsibility to the customer. Because if they receive that box, and it wasn't packed properly and the items inside are broken, or whatever, that's going to reflect on the entire company.
Now back to this employee that never sees the customer in the warehouse, in the accounting department, whatever. If you are going to create a culture that's focused on the customer, there has to be a personality to that culture and the people who are hired have to be in alignment with that personality.
Now, again, being nice means friendly, it doesn't mean overly friendly or overly gregarious, it is really about the fundamental concept of just being friendly and nice to your colleagues and your customers, not overly so that's why even behind the scenes, they still have to have a little bit of something going on there, they just don't have to be quite as dedicated to it as perhaps somebody on the true front line.
The Difference Between Loyalty Programs and Marketing Programs
Me: Now in the book you also mentioned to create real customer loyalty, we first need to understand the difference between loyalty programs and marketing programs. Can you explain to our audience what you mean by that?
Shep stated that let's just take frequent flyer miles for a moment, they call that a loyalty program, the airlines do and the reality is it's a miles program, it's a points program.
In other words, it's a marketing program. In a sense, it's kind of a discount, you buy enough airline tickets, and you fly in the airline long enough, you get a free flight, just like if you go to a restaurant and they punch your card five times, the sixth sandwich might be free.
So, his question is, and he doesn't know if Yanique fly a lot or not, but I talked to people all the time he goes, if the entire airline industry were to take away the miles program, would you still fly on the same airline that you're currently spending most of your time on?
Because most people will try to accumulate miles on one particular airline and he’s surprised it's split. He hasn't done a formal survey, but he’s going to say it's approximately 50/50 from the people that say, “Oh, I'd stay here.” or “You know what, I'd fly a different airline.” And it's that simple. The reason they're staying on the airline is because of the points, not because of the airline itself, take that away, and it's gone.
Now, the other thing they talked a little bit about related to repeat business versus loyal business, is that sometimes-repeat business is due to maybe it's a better price.
“Why do you love doing business with them? They have the lowest prices?”
“What if you found somebody with a lower price? Well, then I'd go do business with them.”
So, the customers loyal to the price, not the company. And the same thing with convenience.
“Why do you go to them? Well, they're the closest one.”
“What happens if a competitor moves closer? Well, I'll probably do business with them.”
So, what you need to do in those situations, if price is how you're competing, or convenience is how you're competing, make sure you deliver a level of service. And when given the opportunity, try to connect with that customer on some kind of an emotional level, make them want to not only do business with you, because of whatever reason they have in their mind, but also make them like doing business with you.
Me: Yeah, I totally agree. So, you're saying then that most loyalty programs or that they dub as loyalty programs are actually marketing programs. So, what really makes a customer loyal, as you said, is that emotional connection.
Shep shared that it often is, he will add that there are certain programs, like Nike has a loyalty program, it's actually a membership program, it has really nothing to do with points, it has to do with, “Hey, you're a customer and we're going to give you great information about what you're interested in.” So, if he just bought some golf shoes from Nike, and he’s never bought golf shoes from them and since that time, he’s received a couple of really interesting emails, not just about product, but about how he can improve his golf game, and what the new technology and the shoes are.
And so, he learned about these things and he thinks to himself, they know who he is. But what they don't send him is they don't send him information on soccer shoes or football as you might call it in other parts of the world, because they know that's not something he’s ever bought from them and he’s never indicated in the interest.
So, he considers that type of program more focused on gaining the customer in other ways than just giving them true incentives to buy.
So, he thinks that's an important delineation between membership programs and marketing. Now, one other thought before we jump off of this is that some people refer to the Amazon Prime program as a loyalty program and he even thinks Amazon refers to it as the Prime membership program, not a loyalty program and if they do, it's okay. But here's what happens when you're willing to spend $120 a year and it might be $129 a year, you want to get your money's worth out of it so you're going to try to use them as often as possible. That's the idea is give them, the customer, a reason to come back and that's because you spent money with them and you want to make sure you get good value for that.
Organizations Looking to Incorporate Digital Even More But Still Create An Amazing Experience
Me: Now, the book also mentions, it piggybacks a little bit on some of your principles from your previous book, The Convenience Revolution, that was such an awesome book. And it talks about self-service, technology, subscription delivery, access and reducing friction. And I've seen a lot of organizations clearly having to pivot over the last year and a half since the pandemic, trying to look at their customer journey, trying to incorporate digital even more, even those organizations that didn't have digital as part of their whole process. And sometimes in doing that, it actually creates a lot of confusion and friction for the customer because there are so many steps that you have to take, and you're so frustrated and a lot of times you'd want to serve yourself but you can't, you have to end up reaching out to somebody either through their contact center, or even physically visiting their location. What are your thoughts on organizations looking to do all those things, but still create that amazing experience?
Shep shared that there's a lot going on there, he wrote an entire book on the concept of convenience and there's no way he couldn't reference this in the new book, because this is what drives repeat business is frictionless, easy, the company that's often easiest to do business with is the one that wins that means it makes price a little less relevant, so that may not be as important to the customer when they say, it's so easy, it's worth paying for.
And he'll give a quick example of this. Prior to the pandemic, when he wrote the book, by the way, The Convenience Revolution, in his mind it was somewhat of a breakthrough in the thought process, nobody had ever written a book about this. There was an author, actually two authors together wrote a book titled The Effortless Experience, but it was all about the getting customer support and making that easy. This is about everything related to your business, now back then it was breakthrough, then it became trendy and now it's become an expectation, especially with COVID.
So, he’s thinking, well, that's the big change that's happened in this, so we've got to be more convenient. He doesn't spend a ton of time on it, he has two short chapters on number one, the self-service route, because that's what you're talking about is going digital and getting your customers to think digital first. How can I get the information that I need to have without having to talk to somebody, without having to wait on hold? And for the company, it's how can I make sure that our people are handling customer issues that are of a higher level rather than dealing with things that are so simple like, can you check on my order? Can you see if it was shipped? Can you see if the payment went through?
Insurance companies and banks, financial institutions are really making it easy for you to check balances and make claims and that type of thing. So by going digital first, if you do it right, you create this great, easy frictionless experience and when there's a problem, you need to make it seamless for the customer to transition to the human to human connection to get their help. And that's where a lot of companies fail, they actually fail in two areas.
Number one, they create a process that's not always intuitive to the customer and the good news is the design, the user experience, or the UX as they call it today. And that design is getting better and better and people are recognizing how easy it is.
Think about when you go on Netflix once you register and you're in how easy it is for you to find the different movies genres that you want okay. When you go to Amazon, the entire buying process, you have total control over and they make it so easy. So, they become like the poster children of what convenience and easy is about. And so, when you do that the right way, you create really a little bit more distance between you and your competition but he digress.
Back to what happened in the pandemic and why people are willing to pay for it. If you think about it, delivery is a great convenience. He used to have his food delivered from different restaurants, they never charge for it, once we got into the pandemic, they started charging. And he’s not saying we're completely out of it, but we're out of it enough that everybody's back to somewhat business is normal like it used to be. And guess what, they're still charging, and nobody is complaining, they're willing to pay for convenience.
Last year, they did a study and they looked at over 1000 consumers and they found that, he believes it was 60%, this year was just a titch different, but it was around 60% of people were willing to pay more, they want a great service experience but they'll pay even more for convenience. And that number goes up to almost 90% when delivery is actually part of that convenience.
Me: I think a big part of it also, well at least for me personally is safety, with the pandemic and people are so concerned about being exposed, especially as we're clearly going through another wave a lot of countries are going to another wave now, people want to be safe. So if that means I can stay in the convenience of my home and place an order and it can be delivered and the only exposure I'm having is to physically come to the door and just exchange money or if I paid through the app and it's just to get the bag from the delivery person, then I'll definitely rate you higher because I feel safer and I think safety has been definitely something that customers look for that is included in the whole convenience, all because of the pandemic, at least I view it as important. If I don't feel safe in an environment, it's highly unlikely that I'm going to return to the business unless I absolutely have no choice.
Shep shared that 100% safety is of the utmost concern of some people, and you know what it's like, “I'm going to order it, set it at the front door and leave. I'll pick it up when they're gone and they're not there anymore.” But you're right and the digital experience that companies are creating that are making customers feel better about doing business with them, he thinks is a really important piece of building that trust and creating a connection. He might have been doing business the old way with somebody and they knock on the door, and they'd say, “Hello” but if the new way requires or his desire is to have that door stay closed, yet they create a system that allows him to still get everything done easily, he’s still going to be appreciative that that company took the effort to make that happen.
Now, long term, you can't automate or digitize a personal relationship, you still need to create some type of connection. Just before they came on together and they're recording this, he got a call, he won't tell you the name of the airlines, but their initials are American Airlines, AA. And you know what they were doing, they were just calling to number one, say, “We saw that you flew last week and you've been flying a little bit more regular, we just want to thank you for that.” Every one of his flights is booked online, he put his boarding pass on his mobile phone. And other than dealing with flight attendants and people at the gate, he doesn't ever talk to anybody from American, they're losing that connection with him. So, what did they do? They picked up the phone and they made an outbound call just to check and say thanks for business, that's how you humanize the automated relationship.
Me: Amazing. And I'm happy you touched on that because that was actually a question I was going to ask because I get asked that question quite often, with technology and automation and artificial intelligence and chatbots and all of these things that companies are doing to enhance the customer experience. Do you feel that the human interaction is going to fade away?
And I always think, no, I think at the end of the day, human beings like to deal with human beings because at some point, that robot or automation can't answer your question. I've had the personal experience myself, it's like they're automated, they ask you a question, you log on, and they say, what's your name, and you put in your name, you put in your account number, and you tell him the issue that you're having and it seems like the robot is just regurgitating the same information to the point where I have to say, “I would like to speak with a representative.” Then it says, “I don't understand what you are saying.” then I change up how I say it, I say, “I would like to have an Agent.” And then it gets what I'm saying.
Shep shared that he gets it. And that's so frustrating and it should seamlessly take you there, there should be an easy way to get there. But that to your point, it's very difficult if all you are is a digital last company, you're not going to be able to compete with the people to figure out how to create the balance. And the magic happens in the balance and it's different from one industry to the next. And even from one company to the next but they figure it out.
App, Website or Tool that Shep Absolutely Can’t Live Without in Him Business
When asked about an online resource that he cannot live without in his business, Shep shared that that is a great question. He loves his travel apps, he travels so much, so it's very difficult. So, he’s looking at his phone going, what is it that he can't live without? He loves the communication apps, he’s on WhatsApp a lot and they do a Zoom. How about LastPass. LastPass, which is so important, he has a virtual workforce, and they all have access to different websites, yet they have no idea what his password is, he loves that.
Books That Have Had the Greatest Impact on Shep
When asked about books that have had the biggest impact, Shep shared that one of the books that is probably his favorite aside from I'll Be Back: How to Get Customers to Come Back Again & Again by Shep Hyken and other books that he’s written. He loves The Experience Economy: Work Is Theater & Every Business a Stage by Joe Pine and James Gilmore, it's one of the greatest books written on customer experience. And even though it was written over 20 years ago, and they did come out with an updated version, he believes that it is as relevant today as it ever was. So, love that book. He loves the Tom Peters book from the 1980s In Search of Excellence: Lessons from America’s Best-Run Companies. And even though many of those companies aren't around, which is by the way is one of the reasons he likes it, it shows how the most excellent companies, some of them are out of business, some of them were bought out, you cannot ever rest on your laurels but he loves the lessons that it teaches. That's a great book. So, he loves The Experience Economy, probably number one business book in his choice.
What Shep is Really Excited About Now!
Shep stated that he knows he sounds like a broken record but the book just came out, I'll Be Back. So very excited about that. But you know what else? He has a report, it's called the 2021 ACA Report Achieving Customer Amazement.
He did the 2020 last year. So, the 2021 he was going to put out earlier this year, but he felt they were still so deep in the COVID dealings that he thought you know what? He wanted to wait. So, he waited until June to do the research and they just came out with the report. So, just go to his website, www.hyken.com and you'll see the link to get the report.
Me: Awesome. I will definitely be accessing that. I thought the content that you put out last year from the 2020 report and I shared it with a few of my clients, I thought it was really, really great. So, I'm happy that you have an updated one this year.
Shep shared that his favorite stat is, again, by the way, he mentioned a couple of these stats before where they interviewed the consumers. They asked, “Would you rather go to the dentist or call customer support?” 48% of the people said, “I'd rather go to the dentist.” So, it's a great report, it's free. And he thinks there's a lot of great information that would compel a company or an individual to say, you know what, if I don't deliver service, I'm going to lose my customers. This is a reason that I need to keep at the top of my game.
Where Can We Find Shep Online
Me: So, our guests, our listeners would have tapped into this episode when it's released and they are super pumped about your book, I'll Be Back. How to get customers to come back again and again, because I think that's what every business wants, not just to do a one-time sale, but to actually have their customers come back over and over again for their lifetime of that product or service that they're using.
And so where can they find you online, they want to download this report, they want to tap into the book, they want to tap into your journey, see what you're up to? And just really be in touch with you. Where can they find you online?
Website – www.hyken.com
YouTube – ShepTV
Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Shep Uses
When asked about a quote that he tends to revert to, Shep shared that this is one that he have come up with on his own. And he doesn't know if he’s ever shared this but “Bad days only last 24 hours.” And here's what happened. He took a daily pocket planner where you write out like what your plans are, it's a calendar. And instead of planning, he reflected at the end of each day, what happened today that was good, and on a weekday, it was business and personal and the weekend, it was pretty much just personal because he tries not to do too much business on the weekends. And he found that within a very short period of time, he realized that even on the worst days, good things happen. So, it was very, very motivational, inspirational, if you will. But it was really inspiring to realize that as bad as the bad day is, it's really not all that bad.
Me: True, very true. I do something very similar as well. But it's more like a gratitude journal, it’s digital actually. I just like have a note, I use the Notes app on my devices a lot, it's so amazing. And you can lock the note if you don't want other people to access it if they're on your phone. But I'll type out 10 things that I'm grateful for that happened in that day. And sometimes I have more than 10, I'll end up writing like 15 or 18, or 20. But then there are other times that I really have to like dig deep and things that I think are simple, I really have to give thanks for and it makes me just realize that, as you said, even if things didn't go your way, or you didn't get the contract you were looking for, maybe you weren't feeling well, or you weren't able to accomplish certain goals that you had set for yourself, there are other things that happened that makes you feel good, especially when you give thanks for them, or show gratitude for them because it really goes a very far away.
Shep agreed and stated that he likes that. It's an attitude of gratitude and that's part of what his little journaling does and you've experienced that same thing.
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Ryan Beachum has sought to apply his knowledge of the hospitality industry to provide desperately needed solutions. Having previously worked with some of the largest developers in the industry, Beachum saw an opportunity to serve timeshare owners beyond what was offered and so he began building his business idea, ResortShare - from the ground up. In 2016, Ryan created HelloVacay and has consistently led the industry in independent resort marketing and resales. Now, in 2021 he is set to launch a subscription-based, wholesale-priced travel membership in partnership with the Priceline Group.
Questions
Highlights
Ryan’s Journey
Ryan shared that he did quite well, all the way up until 2008. And most people know what happened in the real estate industry in 2008. The second worst economy that the USA has certainly ever had. And he knows it was bad everywhere at that time, but the interesting thing was, he ran into a friend that he hadn't seen in years, actually, that he had grown up with that was working for the largest timeshare developer. And for those of you that don't know, timeshare is really interesting, in that it's kind of the combination of real estate and the hospitality industry.
So, although traditional real estate was not selling whatsoever in 2008, he found that people were still purchasing timeshare in spite of such a bad economy. So, it provided this interesting opportunity for him to at least look and learn about what is this timeshare product and as a by-product of that he ended up getting hired from that large developer and learning more about it. And it started this transition from real estate over to what is now fully in the hospitality industry.
What Does Timeshare, Subscription-Base, Wholesale-Price Travel Mean to the Average Person?
Ryan shared that his original transition was into the timeshare industry, which kind of got him into the hospitality industry. Their new platform is much broader for the hospitality industry as a whole. And so, they're not really focused so much specifically on one kind of sector of the hospitality industry, which is it timeshare, although in case you don't know, timeshare is really a deeded ownership, and it's an interest in a timeshare resort. So, that's really the first thing they started out in providing solutions for that industry. And then what's happened over the last year or so is they've pivoted to actually come up with a platform with Priceline that is really for everyone, not just for the timeshare industry.
Me: In building your business, approximately how many employees do you have in your company?
Ryan shared that there are inside the office and outside, there's roughly 10.
How to Motivate Your Team During a Pandemic
Ryan shared that that's a great question and a lot of that has been interesting because there's been a lot more time where people haven't been working inside the office so that's presented something different.
In terms of the technology they use, it's really easy, of course for what they do for it all to be web based and to communicate through the technology and all of that. But when people are working from home, he thinks it's really important that you have regular meetings, regular conversations with everyone, deliberate meetings that maybe you would not have if you were all in the office together just to at least connect every single day and discuss what's going on and discuss what you want to accomplish for that day, that week, that month. So, really, over the last year or so it's presented certain challenges but communication is key and he thinks as long as you're engaging with everyone on a daily basis, it makes a lot of difference.
Benefits and Opportunities in Using HelloVacay Platform
Me: So, as a customer who is looking for an opportunity to engage in HelloVacay, what are some of the benefits or opportunities that you think exists in this particular platform versus if they were to do another channel of hospitality, for example, like just book their own hotel or go through a travel agency, what are some of the opportunities that they get from utilizing your platform and doing the wholesale travel option?
Ryan shared that that's a great question. So, what they aim to do is to provide everyone with access to private travel rates that previously have not been publicly accessible. So, one of the things a lot of people don't know, if they haven't been in the industry, when they're going through to all these various online travel agencies that exists, some people may have noticed that if they're looking for a hotel or resort for certain dates, and they go and they hunt around to different online travel agencies, they may notice that all the rates for the same resort for the same dates are pretty close to being the same. And the reason for that is resorts and hotels have agreements with online travel agencies that they will not undercut any one given public online travel agency with lower rates on a competitive site. So, what happens is you have kind of a flattening across the board where all the prices are basically the same on the public online travel agencies and for people that have hunted around and looked, they likely have noticed that, and that's really, because the prices are the same that it’s felt that way. So those are public rates.
And then on the other hand, the other extreme is you've got the travel clubs, there's a lot of travel clubs out there where they may be expensive to get involved with the travel club and there's a long-term obligation, and they're paying maintenance fees, or membership fees every single year that are expensive. So, they're spending a lot of money to be a part of that travel club, they may have access to some kind of private rates through that travel club, but there's so much expense and so much long-term obligation.
So, what they want to do is they want to sit in the middle between the public online travel agencies, and then between the expensive travel clubs, and offer access, affordable subscription based, flexible access to private travel rates on the resorts and hotels unsold rooms, combining ultimately some of the benefits that you see with the travel clubs, but without the significant expense and long-term obligation of the travel clubs. So, their prices are legitimately up to 70% off all the public booking rates. So, it's kind of like Netflix style pricing, flexible, affordable, and then they can access all these private wholesale rates.
Me: Amazing. And this is for any type of hotel and does this apply to all aspects of hospitality? So, airlines, hotels, and car rentals, or is it just specific to different aspects of the hospitality industry?
Ryan stated yes, they provide all three through the membership, but he'll throw out a small disclaimer. Their hotels and resort deals are really unbelievable for people that are getting registered and getting on and looking at the rate comparisons and as they look at their rates when it says it's 47% off a hotel, you will see as you look at the other public sites, it's legitimately 47% off.
So, for the hotels and rental cars, the deals are phenomenal, on the airfare, he never tells any members or people that may want to be members that their airfare deals are so amazing, they're not. There’s a convenience for people, they are looking at ways that they can include big discounts on the airfare but the margins are very different on airfare and it's very tough to get those deals, they're going to work on it. But he doesn't want to tell the world that they have amazing deals on airfare when they do not, they're there for convenience for any members.
What Demographic Gravitates to the HelloVacay Package?
Ryan shared that their platform really can be a benefit to anybody that wants or needs to travel, including consumers, and businesses. With that said, they have a subscription-based model.
So, although anybody can benefit from huge discounts that they have on their platform, they believe that all the folks may be skewing a bit younger that are used to paying for a lot of different subscriptions. These days, that's really broadening to everyone, if you think about the streaming services Netflix and Hulu, and Disney Plus, and all these different things and everybody's really getting used to paying these subscriptions monthly but maybe even more so the younger generations, the Millennials, Generation Z are really in the habit of paying for subscriptions for a lot of various things. And so, they do think that they are a very good target audience for them.
Where do you see the Business Evolving to Within the Next 3-5 years?
Ryan shared that what they want to be, ultimately, is the world's most affordable, flexible travel club, with giving people access to private rates that they've never had before, that's what they want to be the most affordable, flexible subscription-based travel club.
And so, when he thinks about the long-term vision for HelloVacay, they really are looking at 3 different areas of what they can offer in terms of first, the inventory, they mentioned timeshare inventory, which is these multi room properties, for anybody that stayed at a timeshare, they're kind of like little apartment a lot of times, little kitchens, separate bedrooms, washer and dryer. So, for people that are traveling longer term, more than just a weekend, it's great to have separate bedrooms, and to have that privacy and all that. So, they worked in the timeshare industry, they have those relationships, they can start to include some of that inventory beyond just the hotels and all of that, that they get from their partner Priceline.
But also, in terms of the inventory, retreats, last minute deals, they are going to work on the flights on getting better deals on the flights, so that's the inventory. But also, they want to add in as many benefits as they can in terms of discounts on attractions, sightseeing, they want to look and see how affordably they can offer people concierge service, perhaps VIP lounge access, these are all things that they're working on to ultimately provide their members. He doesn't have a date for all of these benefits yet, these are all things that they're exploring right now beyond just the access to the private rates.
And then finally, beyond the different sources of discounted inventory and besides the benefits that they're working on providing, they really want to focus on building some interesting technology that they think is going to be really useful to consumers. Some people have heard of a kind of new emerging term they used called Conversational Commerce.
So, a lot of us are now seeing not only on sites, but sometimes on Facebook Messenger and things like that where companies are using more and more improved chatbot technology and those kinds of things, some of that technology is getting really good through using artificial intelligence and those kinds of things is able to really make a good customer service accessible using the technology.
Now, he would never in this day and age just rely on chatbots and that kind of thing for customer service, you got to have real humans backing that. He thinks you can provide a lot of easy access on multiple social media platforms, WhatsApp, all these different things where the Conversational Commerce, the chatbots have gotten very good. And they want to offer decentralized rewards for people and so there's a lot of interesting technology that they'd like to build as well. So, there's really 3 things for them, it's being an aggregate for various different sources of highly discounted inventory for people's membership, it's adding in benefits for people, and it's building world class technology for consumers.
App, Website or Tool that Ryan Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business
When asked about online resource that he cannot live without in his business, Ryan shared that there's really a couple, but there's one that stands out to him as a business owner more than any other that organizes his brain and it's called Trello. He mentioned that he doesn't own any interest in Trello, he doesn't own any shares in their parent company or anything like that. But honestly, in recent years, for him, the style of service which is actually derived from Japan, it's a Kanban board. And for him in the way he thinks, it's huge in organizing his ideas and thoughts. And so, for people that haven't been exposed to Trello, and you have any kind of project or your business or even just for personal use, he highly recommends it, it's a series of columns where you move cards around. And so, for him, it's like putting his brain into a digital format, it's like he’s just moving around, all different thoughts he has and he doesn't know what he’ll do without it.
Books That Have Had the Greatest Impact on Ryan
When asked about books that have the biggest impact, Ryan shared that if he had to say that the one book that has had the biggest impact on his life, that to him is just a profound book and a lot of people know it and he's read it is a book called The Power of Now: A Guide to Spiritual Enlightenment by Eckhart Tolle. So, a lot of people are familiar with Eckhart Tolle now, he's. When he first read that a long time ago, not as many people knew who he was, or what that book was, but for him, the way that that book is delivered, he thinks is beautiful.
And of course, when you read it, it's really based around a lot of Buddhist philosophies and that kind of thing. But he believes, without getting too philosophical, he believes that the ability to have a high quality of consciousness and staying present, whether it's in your personal life, or whether you're working and having that presence is very important, because no matter what you do or how successful you are, if you're not present as Eckhart Tolle always puts it. Instead of us using our minds, we have gotten into a kind of disease of our minds using us.
So, it was meant to be that we use our mind as a tool, but our minds have kind of went on overdrive where we're overthinking everything and it's just kind of on autopilot. And what that does, he believes, is it reduces our quality of consciousness and of course, with that is people that are depressed and anxious because they're always either living in the past or they're living in the future. So, he loves that book, it's he'd have to say his favorite of all time.
What Ryan is Really Excited About Now!
Ryan shared that one of the things he wants to do and having this conversation is, of course, he wants to plug his business. But truly, that aside, yes, of course he wants to tell people about his business. But truly, he’s really excited about it, he doesn't know why this is, but he’s never seen another travel platform offer this product in this way in such an affordable way. So, as an entrepreneur that's had different products and services over the years, never has he been able to offer more value so affordably. People that have signed up for their service will pay $8.95 a month, or they're paying $79 per a year. Well, if someone pays $79 a year, they can save more than that booking just a weekend through their platform. So, to him, he’s really jazzed about that, he’s really excited about that right now because he’s never had a product offer to the world that had such tremendous value over what the price is, it's just very exciting to him.
Where Can We Find Ryan Online
Me: So, our listeners would have plugged into this episode and they are quite intrigued with HelloVacay, they want to learn more about it, they want to maybe connect with you, follow you on your journey. Where can they find you online? And how can they find HelloVacay online?
Website – www.hellovacay.com
LinkedIn – HelloVacay
Facebook - @HelloVacayWholesaleTravel
Ryan shared that the thing he wanted to do, he’s going to be on a few podcasts and only for the podcast he wanted to give anybody, any of the listeners, he wanted to offer them a free year, not a free week, not a free month, he wants everyone to just try this for a year over just using the public online travel agencies. So, what they've done here is they've set up a promotional page, and it's www.hellovacay.com/freeyear.
And so, all he’s asking people to do please is it'll give you some steps on there, this page is set up just for these podcasts, you will see a link to a post on there that you can share to either Facebook, Instagram or Twitter and if you just take a screenshot of it, it's got a little section on that page where you can upload a screenshot and once you upload the screenshot, it will redirect you and give you a free year. People are paying $79 every day for a year's access and he wants to just give it to everyone for free, he just asked that people just share, kind of spread the gospel. It’s a new platform so people are willing to do that for the promotional page. He thinks you'll really enjoy using it and if you plan on doing any traveling at all, it's going to save you a boatload of money.
Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Ryan Uses
When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Ryan shared that there's a lot of quotes that he really likes but one that he’s reflected on a number of times, especially when we think about the pandemic, and all that, and all the adversity that people go through is Winston Churchill, once said, “If you're going through hell, keep going.”
And he thinks that is a beautiful quote, because we all have trials and tribulations in life. And so, there are some people, unfortunately, that give up, and they're kind of stuck in that one place. And so, he thinks that's kind of a simple but profound way of saying, if you're going through hell, keep going and you'll come out the other side, and things will improve through your persistence.
Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest
Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners
Links
The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience
Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”
The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty.
This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately!
This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others.
Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!
Jason Ten-Pow's passion for customer experience was sparked as a teenager working behind the meat counter of a carnival-themed grocery store in Toronto. Today, Jason is the CEO and President of ONR, the CX consulting firm he founded in 2009. He has a B.A. in political science from the University of Toronto and an M.A. in Quantitative Methods from York University. Jason lives in Toronto with his son Ronin.
Questions
Highlights
Jason’s Journey
Jason shared that it's interesting, it's been a long and sort of winding road to get here but it's been fascinating nonetheless and he’s learned a lot. It started out just being in customer experience and working customer experience in retail positions at a number of different companies early in my career, even in High School, he'd be looking and as he'd worked at these retail locations, he'd be seeing how different customers were treated and look at how customers responded to different treatment.
And you'd see certain customers that come in every week, and you wanted to know, what was it that got them there? Was it just force of habit? Was it all these other sort of things about their actual experience in the store that brought them back again, and again. And when he went into University, started to study public opinion, voting and decision-making theory and looking at how people made decisions. And it was really interesting to see, you'd always think that people are rational decision makers, that they would think, look at all the options and then choose the best option.
But as he went through a lot of these studies, what stood out for him was that there are just too many options out there and too many options available for individuals when making a decision. So many times, shoppers, or people who are making decisions are forced to take shortcuts. And what he found, what was fascinating is the shortcuts that most people take are ones that are steeped in emotion and it's these emotions that drive through decision making.
And as he did more and more research around that, he just found that that seemed to provide the key explanation as to how people make choices and how they make decisions, especially in today's very fast-moving world. And so, as he started working, he started working after graduate school, he did his graduate work in quantitative methods, which is a really cool name for math basically, and he tried to measure how people make decisions and trying to actually create an algorithm around how to measure the influence of decision making.
And so, his natural progression into the workplace was to actually follow in those footsteps. At first, he worked for a company that did a lot of market research, digital market research, and over time that evolved into really focusing on “Okay, what are the influences of this decision making that customers are making?” And then that naturally came back around 360 degrees and started looking at people's emotions, and what drives people emotions, and what drives them to make the decisions that they do.
And so, founded the company that really was focused on understanding the emotional underpinnings and how to establish and grow and deepen these relationships by delivering on the expectations of these customers. And a lot of these expectations were not sort of just the delivery of a product or service, but actually to make a connection and to deepen a relationship with them was through understanding their wants, needs and desires, and what are the emotional triggers that are associated with these things. And then how to capture their emotion and how to capture their attention, not just their awareness and to be able to build a relationship and to strengthen relationship and how to grow a brand and increase revenue and profits because most people think, falsely so that having good customer experience is just a feel-good movement, it doesn't actually have any sort of impact on the business, but that couldn't be further from the truth.
Great customer experience, actually, is what builds deeper relationships that drive revenue and profit. So, these are the things that they think about, and they talk about, and they help brands as they drive their strategy to deepen relationships with their customers.
The Book Unbreakable – What are the Key Themes and How Can the Book Help a Manager or a Leader in an Organization
Me: Amazing. So, I was lucky enough to get a copy of your book Unbreakable. I am in the process of reading it but I love it, it's been so intriguing since I started reading it last week, it's really, really got some great nuggets in there. So, could you share with our listeners a little bit about the book? What are maybe the key themes that are in the book? And how do you think this book can help a manager or a leader in an organization?
Jason shared that he'll talk a little bit about why he wrote the book and it's really interesting. There's this misconception as he just mentioned that customer experience is a feel-good investment, it has and it's not just a field, but what this book sort of walks through is the fact that it's not a feel-good investment, it's more than that. Only 6% of brands have actually reached the highest level of CX transformation, which means they're building unbreakable relationships with their customers.
So, he really wrote this book for the other 94% of organizations out there that are really looking to build these unbreakable relationships with their customers, and aspiring to crack the code of how to link these relationships with increase revenue, profits, efficiency, and employee satisfaction.
And finally, how to create a playbook to transform your organization from one that has in its interest, the prioritization of the customer to one that actually lives and breeds prioritization of the customer, and actually is able to see real dividends from deepening their relationships with customers.
Factors that Play an Integral Role in Making Decisions
Me: So, you spoke earlier when you were talking about your journey and how you got to where you are today, that emotions play a very integral role in customers making decisions. And you also mentioned expectations, which I think is so important. Could you share with us based on your research what are some of the things that influences customer’s expectations?
And then maybe also just touch on why do you think emotions plays such an integral role in somebody making a decision?
And are there other factors that come into play? And if other factors come into play, do emotions out-weigh those other factors? Or do emotions always take the greater portion of the decision-making process?
Jason shared that that's a really complex question. And he can give you a very logical and very easy to follow example. We go to the store every weekend to buy groceries and we make decisions all the time when we look at the shelf, about things that we want to purchase, things that we need to purchase and things we would like to purchase. What makes us take that extra step of actually going and picking up a product and putting it in the cart.
When we think about that entire process, a lot of it is steeped in emotion, it's like, “Oh, wow, this package looks a little bit more appealing than the next package.” Or “This is something I need today because I need to pick me up.” It's all about our state, we're human creatures, and human creatures, we have wants, needs and desires, but these wants, needs and desires are governed by our emotional state.
So yes, there are real practical implications around the decisions we make, “Hey, I need to buy mustard today but what brand of mustard I will purchase or what type I will purchase?” It's going to be influenced by something above and beyond that. So what is it? Is it I'm looking at all the different options on the shelf, there may be an entire shelf or row of different brands of mustards. Does my past experience play into it? Absolutely. But there's also that immediacy of, “Hey, this looks like an interesting product, this looks more visually appealing.” Those are all aspects of our motion.
Now, when we take that one step further, and think about when we go into a store to shop, if we're greeted at the front by a friendly face, now all of a sudden, you as an individual respond to that, you may be more open to buying. When you're at the checkout, and somebody asks you, how's your day going? How do you feel? Why do companies insist on doing that? Because they know that it plays into our emotional state. And if we're in a happy place, if we're in a good mood, we're more likely to make a splurge purchase. And so also, if we're hitting the right tone, our tonality, if we're talking to people in a certain way, if we're reassuring them, if we're making them feel wanted, needed and desired, then people respond positively to that.
Can you imagine someone makes you feel wanted, needed and desired? How many times will you dismiss them without even having a conversation with them or being thankful about it, it's very seldom that that happens. So as emotional creatures, we are bound, and influenced subconsciously by these sorts of feelings and emotions.
And we try to wrestle against sort of this rational state of being where we want to sort of look at all our options on the table and making sure we're making the right choice. But inherently, in today's day and age, with so many options available to us, we have to have shortcuts, or we could be spending hours, days, weeks, months, before we can actually do the research necessary to make the decision. And as with the way how fast the world is moving, we just don't have that time, time is our enemy.
So, we're always trying to figure out faster ways to do things, better ways to do things, more efficient ways to doing. And you know what, at the end of the day, because we're emotional creatures, those are the things that bubble up to the surface and help us create those shortcuts for decision making.
Me: Now, as it relates to us being emotional creatures, do you think gender plays our role, or better yet, even our culture? So, for example, Caribbean people versus people who are from North America versus people who live in the Middle East? Do you think those things contribute to people's decision making?
Jasons stated absolutely. Your tribe you belong to has a huge influence on not only what decisions you make, but what emotion govern your decision making. So, he thinks Yanique’s hitting on a conversation they can spend hours discussing how Caribbean people are different. They have different emotional triggers versus someone that's North America, South American, European, absolutely, those things absolutely are vitally important, that's what makes us special, that's what makes us unique. If you want to build a relationship with a customer, you have to understand what culture they belong to, what tribe they belong to, because today, more and more, those are the things that are having important impact on our decision making.
Me: Well, I've definitely seen it. As you know, as we were talking pre to the actual recording, you mentioned that you're from Guyana, and of course, I'm from Jamaica. But I've definitely seen that in Jamaica specifically, how we make our decisions is based on how we’re cultured and how we're socialized. And I find that it's different when I travel to other parts of the world. So, I can imagine how hard it can be for a business, who has customers that are multicultural, because it would mean then that their approaches have to be multifaceted, it can't be one size fits all, because everybody's going to have their unique approach and their unique preferences and set of wanting how something is done, versus just having one thing that's rolled out to everybody.
Jason agreed that Yanique is right. And that's why the approach to customer experience is so important. Many brands see customer experience as a problem that needs to be solved, again, very, very wrong approach.
Relationships are not a problem that needs to be solved, they're organic, they need to be nurtured and deepened by understanding the complexity of your customers, understanding who they are, where they come from, what their wants, needs and desires and then using that understanding to actually shape the way what you do and how you do it in order to better bring these folks into the fold, and that's a fundamental mistake that brands make today, because soon as you start with customer experience is a problem that needs to be solved, it takes you down a completely different road, around what matters and what's important and what you need to do to build relationships that are strong, unbreakable relationships with your customer.
App, Website or Tool that Jason Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business
When asked about an online resource that he cannot live without in his business, Jason stated that he’s a little bit biased with this because their company has this product, the solution called Bespoke, and it's absolutely imperative in today's day and age, that you have a product like this, a solution like this, and what it does, it amalgamate, brings together all your different customer experience data into one location, helps you analyze it, and then helps you internally as an organization to build activities and things you can do to train your organization to be more a team to your customers wants, needs and desires. There are so many different tools, there's Eloqua, there's Adobe, you have your voice of customer over here data, but all of these things are in silos.
What Bespoke does, it brings pieces, or elements of all this data together to tell a complete story about the entire customer experience so that you can understand very quickly, and on an ongoing basis how your customer relationships are developing, what are the problems they're experiencing, and how for example, you can train certain types of behaviours amongst your customer service representatives, or how you need to change the journey the customer is taking through the website to make a purchase. All these things are encapsulated into one place so your team doesn't have to go and hunt for all this information around their organization, it's all in one place and it provides not only the data, but it provides recommendations about the actions you need to take in order to build these deeper customer relationships.
Books That Have Had the Greatest Impact on Jason
When asked about books that have had the biggest impact, Jason stated that there's been so many. Paul Snyderman, he's a UCLA, Berkeley, he's written a number of books on decision making, and how people take shortcuts from a sociological and psychological perspective to their decision making. And those have been obviously very influential.
We look around today, and we look at how culture plays such an important role and some of the people he spoke to are such great influencers for him in terms of this area as well, he doesn't want to start rattling off names of people. But those writers out there right now that are sort of talking about culture, and the influence of culture and how important it is not only to help us self-identify, but how to help us find our place in the world.
Those are really some of the great writings he thinks that are coming out today that are really sort of helping us to move away from this concept that one size fits all solution, as Yanique mentioned earlier, is not the way forward, it's actually a deeper understanding of that complexity that helps you to make better decision making.
What Jason is Really Excited About Now!
Jason shared that the thing that really excites him is helping people understand how important every word they say, every action they make has a greater cascading influence on the overall assessment of a brand than ever before. And one of the things as their company is doing right now is really spending a lot of time training and helping people to understand how important it is to develop deep relationships with their clients that they have in order to not only build firmer relationships, but to understand how unique each individual is, and understanding how each individual is, and taking the time to understand each person not as a sale, or as an opportunity to grow your business but as a human being, how important that is, you'll get to the end, you'll get to the end of that sale, but it's not the sale that you're really after, you're after that relationship.
And the more time you take to understand the other person before you start to talk about what you have, what solutions you bring to the table, you need to start spending time listening and understanding what the other party, what their wants, needs and desires are. Too many times today because we're inundated with so many advertisements that's pushing, you need this, you need this, you need this, nobody is stopping to take the time to actually listen to what people are saying about their wants and needs and desires and just the fact that you take the time to listen, immediately as a brand starts to set you apart.
And these are the things that are really going to allow you to be successful, to build those relationships and even internally, their organization is constantly working to nurture that type of learning, and to share that type of learning across their organization.
Me: All right, that sounds like an adventurous journey. And it can be super challenging because people are such complex characters for sure.
Jason agreed, it is very complex. They're not saying it's easy, but they're saying the ROI for your investment does pay off.
Where Can We Find Jason Online
Me: Our listeners would have tapped into this episode, and they're quite intrigued with you, they're going to buy your book Unbreakable: A proven process for building unbreakable relationships with customers, guy's head on over to Amazon, make sure you get a copy of this book. But more importantly, they want to follow you on your journey, they'd like to connect with you further, where can they find you online?
LinkedIn – Jason Ten-Pow
Twitter – @JasonTenPow
Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Jason Uses
When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Jason shared that in the book he mentioned CSA (Collect, Share and Act). When you are unsure about the right decision you need to make, what you need to do is, first of all, make sure especially around customer experience, “Make sure you're collecting the right data, you're sharing that data across your organisation, and ensuring that you're taking actions that align with the knowledge you've gained from the data that you've collected.”
If you do those three things, you will guaranteed be better at building deep customer relationships. Why? Because this is the code that the top 6% of brands that lead the way in building unbreakable relationships, this is the code that they have cracked, it comes down to how well they do at collecting customer data, sharing that across their organisation not keeping it in one little silo but sharing it so everyone has this knowledge about who their customers are and what their wants, needs and desires are and make sure that when they're making important decisions and taking actions, they're actually using that knowledge to influence the decisions and the actions they take.
Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest
Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners
Links
The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience
Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”
The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty.
This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately!
This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others.
Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!