Pete Kusiak is the franchise guru who knows how to bring the fun into business. With a track record of success owning and coaching franchises for over 20 years, Pete's innovative strategies have transformed businesses, boosting revenue and workplace happiness. His passion lies in creating organisations that are not only exciting, but also irresistible. By using his Fun First Strategy, Pete motivates teams, improves company culture, and drive sales and operations to new heights. 

When he's not busy making work lively, you can find Pete enjoying quality time with his amazing wife and four kids in Charlotte, North Carolina. Oh, and did I forget to mention he's a seasoned marathon runner and a connoisseur of Rum Punch and Mai Tais! Pete has certification in Happiness Coaching and Human Resources Consulting, making him your go-to-guy for all things fun and business.

Questions

·    Now, we always like to give our guests an opportunity for them to share in their own words, a little bit about your journey. How did you get to connecting fun with business? How did that all come about?

·   So, can you tell our listeners a little bit about your book, Drop the F-Bomb in Your Business and maybe two to three overarching themes that the book focuses on, just like what can they expect from the book?

·    Are there any recommendations you could give to our listeners, like if they wanted to make fun part of their culture, what are some things like from a recruitment perspective you would need to kind of identify in the interview process to kind of pick those persons or at least be able to identify that those persons may have those qualities?

·     Could you share with our listeners what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely cannot live without in your business?

·      Can you also share with our listeners maybe one or two books that you've read, it could be a book that you read recently, or even one that you read a very long time ago, but it has had a great impact on you.

·      Now, could you also share with our listeners, what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

·       Where can listeners find you online?

·     Now, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off track, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track.

Highlights

Pete’s Journey

Me: Now, we always like to give our guests Pete an opportunity for them to share in their own words, a little bit about your journey. How did you get to connecting fun with business? How did that all come about? Can you tell us?

Pete shared that his journey really started way back when he graduated college. And he linked up with a franchise, children's fitness franchise called The Little Gym and it is all about creating these great fun experiences with kids and teaching them how to enjoy being physically active. So, that really carried with him as he progressed through his years in corporate America, because he had eventually made a name for himself and got linked up with the corporate headquarters of that franchise, did some training and consulting, to eventually owning his own Little Gyms in the Charlotte market. 

So, once they built a successful franchise platform in Charlotte, it was time for him to kind of step back from the day to day operations and got more involved in the coaching consulting realm with different brands, mainly in the service industry, but helped build operations, and trainings and coaching and all sorts of good things over the last few years that ultimately led him to sit back and really reflect about why businesses are successful?

Why were his businesses successful?

What was the commonalities between the businesses that didn't have success versus the ones that did? 

And it came down to one thing, it was really easy, the businesses that had the most fun, were the most successful, and he felt that in my businesses, the days or months or years that they were focused on that grind, they were in that mentality of a grind, they weren't as successful as the years they were just enjoying what they were doing and celebrating with their customers, and just creating a culture that was really good. So, the mindset really made a big difference. 

So, what he did was he decided, “Hey, if I could put all of these unique theories and these unique methods into a book, it would really make a great business strategy.” So, a couple years ago, he started writing, and came up with what he called the Fun First Strategy, it's really a way to prioritize making fun, the element in which or the catalyst in which you can have business success. So, kind of a long story there. But it's a wide range from his early beginnings of a teacher and working with kids all the way through working with multiple brands and coaching and consulting, but using those strategies to really propel fun as a catalyst.

Pete’s Book – Drop the F-Bomb in Your Business

Me: So, then you wrote a book called Drop the F-Bomb in Your Business: With The Fun First Strategy. F of course, standing for fun. So, that book was published on January 23 of 2024, correct?

Pete said yes, he was having fun with a wordplay there. Drop the F bomb and what's so neat is that coming from the children's fitness industry, they didn't use foul language, you're working with kids, you don't do that. So, he thought it would kind of be unique to position it as an eye catcher and you get people curious about what he’s talking about. So, having a little fun with words.

Me: It was, I will have you know that when your profile was presented to me via email, that's what caught my attention in the email. So, I was like drop the F bomb. I said, I wonder what he's talking about. And then I did some more research. And I was like, Oh, this sounds pretty interesting. I'd love to have him on our podcast as a guest. So, can you tell our listeners a little bit about your book, and maybe two to three overarching themes that the book focuses on, just like what can they expect from the book? Is it more like narratives in terms of examples of using fun in different businesses and you give like case studies and examples, or is it more so you talking more from a strategy perspective of using fun as that trigger that will help to navigate that experience  

Pete shared that it's really all of the above, because they have to prove that there's a need for fun in business, because a lot of times when you throw that out there, so you need to have more fun in order to be successful in business, people not necessarily agree, everyone for the most part understands that it's important to celebrate the victories, have fun when you win, achieve goals. But his book is really about how you make fun part of the journey, not just the reward, that's a key element. But you really need to know and flip that mindset to, “If we could have fun along the way. If we could build that into our operations, if we could build that into our business environment, our customer service. If we could attract more like minded individuals that want to have fun, and be part of that process, what would that do for your business?”  

So, the book really starts with changing the mindset and can convincing through the philosophy that fun does work, it can create opportunities for more, better problem solving, better creative thought, more work engagement, which is ultimately going to lead to higher profits, better customer service, etc. So, they kind of start there. And then as the book progresses, it takes you through what he calls the playbook. 

The playbook, or the PLAY book is really important because that's the actual strategy sets, that's one of his theories is called The Principle of PLAY and that stands for Prioritize, Laughter and Youth, so when you can find a commonality amongst your people, your team, your culture, your business culture, you can start to employ these play principles so that you're having more unique experiences and getting to those points where everything else is a lot easier, because you're having fun along the way. And so then, toward the end of the book, they talk about the strategies in experiences. So, he actually have written some real life examples of how the first strategy actually worked in different businesses. So, those will be fun to read as well.

Me: All right, that is awesome. So, PLAY you said stands for Prioritize, Laughter and Youth.

Pete stated that's right. So, if you make fun, obviously, the Fun First Strategy, right, prioritize, make it a priority in your business, to make fun part of your culture. And if you can make it number one, great. But laughter, who doesn't want to laugh when you have to work? So, they do that through gameplay in creating opportunities to be a little silly, and youth, youth comes in because he likes to say, consider the things you did as a child, what did you like to do? What games did you play? What activities did you enjoy? Because it's fun to revisit, it's fun to revisit and think about this as you're a child, you're taught through play, you're taught through music, you're taught through song or games and activities. But as we get older, at least here, the education he received was that they had less and less play, they had less and less singing and things like that. 

But why? If we're hardwired to do that, if we're doing that from the beginning, what a neat thing that could potentially shape you as an adult as well if you are hardwired to play and be active and want to take that moment of joy, it's going to change your mindset and everything that you do, right. So, it was important for him that they addressed the grind culture, what he calls the grind culture, and the negativity that happens when you get into a grind culture. 

So, this book really helps you to one, recognize if you're in that culture, but two, the real, true strategy on how to get out of that. Ultimately, his goal was to create more workplace happiness, the goal in the Fun First Strategy is to create environments that are very engaging and fun and create workplace happiness.

Me: Amazing, when I opened your bio this morning to prepare for the podcast interview, I had to do a TV interview this morning, I was helping out a friend who has a business that focuses on indoor playground experience [YG1]  . So, it's targeted towards children but because we live in a tropical country and a lot of times when you take the kids outside, you're so exhausted from the heat and sun, she decided that she was going to create this indoor playground experience with like, soft play and sensory activities, and ball pits and live characters like the ones you see in TV shows, so you have them right there dressed up in front of the kids. And we did a game with the hosts where they had two baskets and two sets of balls, one red, one green and each person had a balloon. 

And the aim was to get as many of your colour balls into the basket without the balloon falling on the ground. But it was so much fun, they had so much fun. Like I was watching the video after I left the TV studio this morning and I was like, they had so much fun, they were like literally back as kids again. And I always say it. I mean, I believe that as adults, we are really big kids, but I find that we get so serious sometimes we take ourselves too seriously, we don't take time to do fun and exciting things that make us laugh, because I do believe that those are things that help to keep you youthful. 

Pete agreed, absolutely. And just think about how that made you feel, right. And that's the principle of play at work, when you can put some silliness into your day, going to be a better problem solver, you're going to be more creative and finding your solutions. Because you're just thinking in that manner, thinking in a playful, creative way. Now, not to say that business is all fun, and not work because he believes that you do have to take business seriously and things that you have to do and reaching goals and measuring your business and all the things that make you financially successful, that's important. 

But if there was a way to make it more fun, if there was a way to get to those goals that are less stressful, or are less of a grind, you would probably do it. So, that's what this is all about, it's about making sure that you're allowing yourself the opportunities to have some fun at work, because you're going to open the doors to like-minded individuals, people that want to come work for you, customers that want to do business with you because the experience is wonderful. Think about the amount of hours we spent working days, we don't want to be caught up in a lifestyle that just is beaten up. He wants to have more life experience. 

Now the key really to this is the common interest, because what's fun for one person may not be fun for the next and in the book he wrote about that, that there are diverse perspectives on fun. And through the strategy and through the book, you can kind of find common interest in there through icebreaker games and different things that you can do at work to find common interest amongst your team, or even with your customers. And then you kind of start to theme things and make things more enjoyable because he likes to run, Yanique had mentioned in his bio that he’s a marathon runner, but that's not fun for everybody. But for him, it's a good opportunity for him to express, move his body, express himself and all the good things that come along with running and staying healthy, to him it was fun. He likes to challenge himself but for the next person it may not be so you have to find those common interests and then build upon those interests as you find them. 

And then one really big caveat is you have to remember the rule of grandma, so, the rule of grandma means if you wouldn't do it in front of your grandmother, you shouldn't do it at work because he’s heard some interesting stories when it comes to fun at work, we don't want to any HR nightmares. So, if you wouldn’t do it in front of grandma, don't do it at all.

Me: As you were talking about loving running, and just being able to express yourself, I'm going to tell you a little secret that unfortunately all of my listeners are going to hear now, but I love to dance, right, now, I'm not a good dancer according to some people who dance really well and see me dance, right? But I believe everybody can dance and everybody can sing. I just believe that maybe they're not doing it to the level or at the capacity or competence that Whitney Houston, or Celine Dion can sing, or Shakira can dance, but I believe I can dance. But I feel so good when I dance, even if it's foolishness I'm doing Pete, it feels good.

Pete stated that that is awesome. And he'll tell you that two things come to mind. One is he spent time in Jamaica when they get the chance to vacation and stuff with his family, they absolutely love the culture, because it is full of life and dancing and movement, joy and singing. And he just loves to be around that type of environment, but he doesn't dance. And what's funny is even in his book he wrote about that as a concept, is that t's okay to enjoy things even if you're not participating. 

So, don't always judge a book by its cover when you're creating games or activities or experiences that involve fun at work. If somebody's just kind of standing by watching, don't jump to the assumption that they're not having fun because if you were to kind of outside looking in at him watching a group of people dance, you’ll say, “Well, how come he is not dancing, he must not be having any fun” but he’s having the time of his life just enjoying you expressing your love for dance, that's a great time, it's a lot of fun for him to be in part of that environment but he’s just not going to dance.

How to Select the Right Candidates for a Company with a FUN Culture?

Me: I get it. So, I have a question for you. The aim is to ensure that you have a fun culture, right? How do you attract people who like to have fun? Are there any recommendations you could give to our listeners, like if they wanted to make fun part of their culture, what are some things like from a recruitment perspective you would need to kind of identify in the interview process to kind of pick those persons or at least be able to identify that those persons may have those qualities?

Pete shared that it's kind of a lot goes into that because one, once you've established that you're a fun culture, it's one thing to write that on a job ad and he thinks that there's a lot of job ads that he’s read recently that promote a fun culture. But again, there's diverse perspectives of fun and if it's a core value in your business, or you're promoting a fun culture, you need to live up to the hype, because he’ll tell you, when somebody is bought into your job ad, because you wrote about the fun, talked about that as a core value, and then they show up for an interview or they're ready to start their work and they don't see that culture in play, they're not going to stay or they're not going to show up again for another interview. 

So, he thinks that you have to kind have to one, establish the fact that you are going to commit to this type of a culture and you're going to live it, you're going to be an embodiment. And what that fun version is for you, as the leader of the organization, the owner of the organization, the managers of the organization, whatever that model of fun is, it's okay for you to own it, because you're going to have people that may be aligned with your version of fun and there may be some people that don't. So, when you write job ads and you promote the job that you're ready to hire, you want to give very specific reasons of what you're doing to provide that fun culture. 

So, if you like to do a lot of outings or if you'd like to do a lot of silly themes during your week, there was one company he worked with, they love everything and any cats. So, they talked about, “Hey, we have a silly, fun culture at our business.” And they would talk about this in interviews because we are qyuirky they love everything cat, if you're a cat person, reach out because you'll fit right in. Now again, if he doesn't like cats, okay, but if he thinks that that's an interesting culture for him to want to be a part of, he can maybe align with that. So, he likes to say, one, establish what fun is for you. Give examples of that in your job ads. But embrace the uniqueness, embrace the uniqueness.  

One of the biggest mistakes, especially small business owners make is they don't embrace the charm of small business, there's a uniqueness and a charm in small business that you can do things a little bit outside of work. And when people are interviewing, or people are applying for jobs, what they'll do is they'll apply for a lot of different reasons based on the title or the qualifications, things like that. So, as a hiring manager, he’s competing with small business, medium business, large business, corporations and he doesn't want his interview, he doesn't want to his job ads, he doesn't want those things to be exactly like everybody else. And too many times he sees small businesses, especially write their job ads, and shake them like a large corporation and that's okay until the individual comes in to see the environment they're working, oh, well, this isn't the 10 story building they interviewed in last week. Instead, embrace what makes you different, embrace that small charm, because he thinks you're going to attract people that are looking for that type of opportunity, or they know what it is going into. Does that make sense?

Me: Yep, it does, perfect sense.

App, Website or Tool that Pete Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about an online resource that he cannot live without in his business, Pete stated that in his business, he loves QuickBooks. So, he can't live without QuickBooks, that's how he does all his bookkeeping, all his invoicing and all his administrative. So, QuickBooks is a great online resource for them.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Pete

When asked about books that have had a great impact, Pete shared that he’s been thinking about this a lot, because he’s read a lot of business books. And one of the reasons he was so interested in writing a business strategy book was because he’s had so many that were multiple steps, or the 50 laws or 100 steps to whatever and they're long and they're cumbersome. So, his book is a little bit more about keeping it short. There is a book though that he read a few years ago it's called David and Goliath: Underdogs, Misfits, and the Art of Battling Giants, it's by Malcolm Gladwell. And he thought he was picking up a spiritual book at first, spiritual books and different things as a man of faith, but he thought it was picking a spiritual book and it was to a degree, but it was about all these stories and all these examples of how the underdog isn't always necessarily the underdog, but we perceive the smaller, or the weaker, or whatever, as disadvantaged, sort of like David and Goliath. 

But why is it that the underdog always excels? It's because sometimes what's perceived as a disadvantage, could actually be an advantage. And it was so compelling to him and the stories were so compelling that it really made him think about how he was raised, and some things because he wasn't raised very wealthy and things like that, and how he had to problem solve his way to get to things, whether it be to sporting events or practices, different things, and if he wanted new shoes, or different whatever, he had to problem solve that as a young child. 

And so, as he became a business owner, a business person later on down the road, he started remembered, “Hey, I can figure out pretty much any problem that comes my way because I practice those skills so early on” and growing up, he thought it was a huge disadvantage, he didn't have the things his friends had, they didn't have as much money, but he used those skills every day of his life now. So, that book is a great example of perceived ideas on disadvantages, they actually may be the things that are strengthening. So, it was a really neat perspective.

What Pete is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something he’s excited about, Pete shared like he said, the book is out so he’s just celebrating his work, he call it his life's work, his big strategy. It's really taking up a lot of his time and he loves it, he loves being able to spread the word about adding fun into work and creating workplace happiness. He thinks it's a movement for sure and he loves being on the kind of the precipice of this new business ideology that if we can add more fun, engaging experiences we can create workplace happiness for everybody. So, he loves being a part of that, so, that's huge for him. So, spreading the word.

Where Can We Find Pete Online

Website  - www.funfirststrategy.com

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Pete Uses 

When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Pete shared that being a marathon runner, or being somebody that runs, his mantra ever has always been, “Never, never give up.” So, that echoes in his mind a lot as he start a new venture, start a run, especially a long run that he doesn't know if has the energy, just keep moving, keep moving, “And remember to have fun.”

Me: All right, perfect. So, never, never give up. And always remember to have fun. I had fun in this interview.

Pete shared he did as well, he couldn't pass up the chance to chat with somebody from Jamaica. So, love it.

Me: Warm my heart, warm my heart. Thank you so much, Pete, we really appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule. I know you're busy promoting the book and spreading the message. So, taking a good 30 minutes out of your day to sit with us and share all these great insights and nuggets about what you're doing and just how it can help to improve and increase on workplace happiness and just human happiness, to make people just enjoy life more and not take themselves so seriously. But all while getting the job done and achieving the goals that we're all working towards, it was really a fun and productive conversation. Thank you so much.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

•     Drop the F-Bomb in Your Business: With The Fun First Strategy by Pete Kusiak

•     David and Goliath: Underdogs, Misfits, and the Art of Battling Giants by Malcolm Gladwell

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners 

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty.

This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately!

This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others.

Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

Ali Cudby, CEO of Alignmint Growth Strategies, which is a dynamic force in business transformation through intentional customer experiences. With a mission to drive growth by architecting superior customer interactions, Ali's expertise aligns strategy and implementation. She is the author of the bestselling book, Keep Your Customers, she offers fresh insights from real-world stories, best practices and CEO-led case studies. 

Her MINT Method, outlined in the book, fuels transformational customer loyalty. With 20+ years in corporate planning and strategic marketing, Ali founded Alignmint in 2014, focusing on small to mid-size companies. As a Purdue University entrepreneurship instructor, she shapes the next generation of business leaders. Ali's podcast appearances showcase her wealth of knowledge in customer experience, growth strategies and intentional business success.

Questions

·      If you could share a little bit with our listeners, how you got from where you were, to where you are today?

·      You are the author of the bestselling book, Keep Your Customers. So, could you share with our listeners a little bit about that book? And maybe just two to three overarching themes that the book focuses on.

·      The MINT Methodology.

·     Now, Ali, could you also share with us what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

·      Could you also share with our listeners maybe one or two books that have had a great impact on you, it could be a book that you read a very long time ago, or even one that you've read recently, but it had a great impact on you.

·      Now, Ali, could you also share with our listeners what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

·      Where can listeners find you online?

·      Before we wrap our episodes up, Ali, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you got derailed or you got off track, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track.

Highlights

Ali’s Journey

Me: So, we always like to give our guests an opportunity to share in their own words a little bit about their journey, even though your bio gives us a formal breakdown of what you've done in the past and who you are, you're an author and the different strategies that you've employed to get to where you are, just in your own words, if you could share a little bit with our listeners, how you got from where you were, to where you are today?

Ali shared that she got into this world of customer loyalty and retention in her first job out of business school. And she was working for The New York Times company in their corporate strategy group, which was kind of like an internal consulting group, and was put on a project in the call centre, which honestly wasn't really considered to be an awesome assignment, it was sort of the call centre was in a warehouse in New Jersey, and not in the very lovely corporate headquarters in Times Square.  

And people were coming up to her and saying, “Oh, I'm so sorry that you've got this gig.” And ultimately, it transformed her thinking about the customer experience and created this path for her entire career. Because it showed her this insight, which is that the things that companies do inside their organization are the things that impact the customer experience. 

So, you have to be really thoughtful about how do you deliver clear and consistent processes for the customer and make sure that you embed that with your team so that your customers can have this great experience. So, that time at the New York Times company was a really long time ago, and she’s had the opportunity now to see this in action in corporate America and in her own path as an entrepreneur and in a very wide range of companies. And so, that's kind of how she started out in this very corporate role.

Keep Your Customers

Me: Now, in your bio we also read that you are the author of the bestselling book, Keep Your Customers. So, could you share with our listeners a little bit about that book? And maybe just two to three overarching themes that the book focuses on.

Ali shared that the book was published, and it came out on April 15, 2020, which as you recall was a little bit of a crazy time. And so, she spent two years putting the book together and making sure that it had everything just perfect and all these speaking engagements lined up and all that stuff. And then the month before the book was published, the world changed. 

And it was really interesting, because the book really focuses on exactly what she was just talking about, what are the things that you can do in your company, to set your customers up for success. 

And she talked about one of the key themes being the balance of heart and smart. And what she means by that is, in order to make customers want to stay with you longer and spend more, and tell all of their friends and colleagues, you have to make people feel seen, heard and valued. 

And we tend to think about that emotional connection to our customers as being a little bit fluffy sometimes and that's a real mistake. The fact of the matter is that humans have a real need to feel like they matter and when you build relationships and when you build trust with your customers, it sets you up for a better business relationship. And that's the heart of the customer experience. 

And then the smart of the customer experience is that you still have to have data and metrics and process in order to ensure consistency. If you don't capture information and learn from it and have a great single source of truth about your customer information so that everybody inside your company knows what's going on with your customers. If you don't have clear and consistent processes that everybody follows, then it's going to be really hard to set up processes for growth. 

So, you can have just like heart-centred employees who really want to do the right thing all the time, but if everybody's doing their own right thing, then you have a mess and what you need is this consistency. So, it's that balance of heart and smart that really drives success in the customer experience.

The MINT Methodology

Me: All right, so the heart and smart. Now, you also speak about your MINT Methodology and I'm going to take a quick guess here that MINT is actually an acronym, right?

Ali stated that it is sort of an acronym. It is a four step process. She really tried hard to make it a cool acronym, and it never quite gelled. But she can talk through the four steps of the process. And the name of her company is actually as you said, it's Alignmint Growth Strategies. And the mint part of it is really intentional, not just because of the method, but because of what mint represents. 

So, when you plant mint, it grows like crazy and when things are awesome, they're in mint condition. And when you make a lot of money, you make a mint. And so, the combination of aligning and mint is exactly what they're looking for in terms of their customers outcomes. 

And so, the MINT method is this four step process where first you are articulating what she calls a bullseye, which is a mission statement effectively for the customer experience. So, companies oftentimes create mission and vision and values for their company, but it's really all about their company. And what people need to do and what companies need to do is also articulate who it is that we want to be on behalf of our customers. Because if you have a goal of being fast and easy, that is going to set you up for a very different customer experience than if you have a goal of being white glove and luxurious. 

And so, in the same way that you want to articulate who you are for your company, you need to articulate who you are for your customers. And so, that's the first step of the process, that's the creating of the mantra of the bullseye. 

Second is understanding who those customers are, really being clear about who it is that you're serving.

·      Why are they loyal to you?

·      What is it that those best customers want?  

So that you are thinking about how you drive more of them. And then she goes into a lot of detail in the book about how do you identify and articulate not just who buys the most from you, but who's the most loyal to you, you can have a really big customer that isn't loyal at all, but they drive a lot of revenue. 

And you can have a small customer that would live and die for you and they tell everybody that they know about how awesome you are, you want those people. And then once you know who it is that you're serving and who you want to get more of, then what do you want their journey to look like? 

So, being very clear about what that customer journey looks like, what are the key inflection points throughout that journey. 

And then finally, the fourth step is identifying clear plays so that everybody inside your company knows exactly what to do whenever a customer gets to that inflection point on the customer journey. So, whether that's the onboarding, kick-off, the business review meeting, or the renewal period, or anything in between, every company has its own unique set of inflection points, some of them follow some level of consistency, onboarding and renewal or repurchase are fairly consistent. But everybody does it a little bit differently, everyone needs to be clear about how they want their company to engage with customers at each of those points along the journey map. 

And again, that's how you make sure that you're delivering something that is not just a well-intentioned approach, but a really thoughtful and strategic approach to retention and growth.

App, Website or Tool that Ali Absolutely Can’t Live Without in Her Business

When asked about online resource that she can’t live without in her business, Ali stated that it's probably Zoom. She stated that that's not a very creative answer but she’s on Zoom all the time, every day, she works remotely for the most part. And so, that's her rock.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Ali

When asked about books that have had a great impact on her, Ali shared that there's a book called The Happiness Advantage: The Seven Principles of Positive Psychology That Fuel Success and Performance at Work by Shawn Achor, and he is a professor of positive psychology at Harvard. And the whole science of positive psychology is fascinating, the way that we create new neural pathways, the way that we can define in our brains how to be more positive, and how to cultivate happiness. And so, his book is just fascinating and he also has a TED Talk, if you don't feel like reading the whole book, he has a TED Talk that is fantastic, it's funny, he's a great speaker, and he gives you some very clear actionable steps at the end of the TED Talk that are very helpful in helping people stay focused on the positivity and moving forward. And she just thinks that his whole approach and that TED Talk, that's one of her favourites.

What Ali is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that she’s really excited about, Ali shared that she just got a puppy. She stated that she knows that that's not necessarily a business thing. But she will tell you that watching her puppy play and explore and be curious about this new world that she has come into is fascinating.  

And it is a great reminder that there's so much that is new and interesting in the world and it's easy sometimes to get into a very fixed mindset about what we do, and the things that we engage with from day to day and moment to moment. You get up and you make your coffee and you sort of go through your rigmarole and sometimes it feels a little bit like, “All right, I’m going to check my boxes, I'm going to do my thing and it's one foot in front of the other” and when you get a puppy who just has this completely new way of engaging with the same old things that you're reacting to every day, whether it's some snow on the ground or a sock on the floor, it reminds you to be open to different ways of seeing the world and she finds that to be helpful in business.  

So, she’s been trying to be intentional about using this lesson that her little ball of fluff is teaching her and just be open to the fact or to the notion that maybe she can approach things differently, maybe she can rethink things and come at them with more of a sense of wonder and play and excitement.

Me: That's amazing. You'd be surprised to know the many different life lessons we can learn from animals. So, I think it's awesome that your puppy is teaching you so many different new ways and perspectives of looking at things from a different view.

Where Can We Find Ali Online

Website – www.alignmintforgrowth.com

LinkedIn - Ali Cudby

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Ali Uses 

When asked about a quote or saying that she tends to revert to, Ali shared that there's a quote by Maya Angelou that she thinks about a lot for her personal life, but it's also a real guideposts in her business. And the quote is, “People will forget what you did, people will forget what you said, but people never forget how you made them feel.” And it's so true, the words that we use don't matter. But when you make someone feel seen, heard and valued, whether it is in your personal life, or whether it is in your business, it is transformative.

Me: All right, thank you so much for sharing. Well, I just want to extend our deepest gratitude to you, Ali, for taking time out of your very busy schedule and hopping on this podcast today, sharing insights about your book, Keep Your Customers as well as your MINT Methodology and just a little bit about your overall strategy and execution as it relates to delivering that magical and unforgettable customer experience. We really appreciate all the great insights that you shared with us today. So, thank you so much.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

•     The Happiness Advantage: The Seven Principles of Positive Psychology That Fuel Success and Performance at Work by Shawn Achor

•     Keep Your Customers: How to Stop Customer Turnover, Improve Retention and Get Lucrative, Long-Term Loyalty by Ali Cudby

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners 

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty.

This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately!

This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others.

Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

 Eric Williamson is the Chief Marketing Officer at CallMiner. As CallMiner’s Chief Marketing Officer, Eric oversees all global marketing functions from brand and events to demand generation. Eric's marketing team works very closely with channel and sales to drive pipeline and CallMiner’s explosive growth. Eric has over 20 years of experience in both technology and consumer products marketing from both the vendor and agency side. 

Before joining CallMiner, Eric was VP Brand & Digital Marketing at Acquia - an open DXP platform built around Drupal - where he led brand, creative services, webops, editorial, and demand generation. Prior to Acquia, Eric was on the agency side of marketing working as SVP Digital & Social Media at MullenLowe, and before that as VP Digital Strategy at The Martin Agency. 

During his career, Eric has worked with a variety of B2C and B2B brands including Google, Microsoft, Intel, GEICO, Walmart, P&G, Pizza Hut, Acura, Royal Caribbean, and Hyatt. He earned his undergraduate degree from Texas A&M University, and an MBA from The University of Texas at Dallas. 

Questions

·      Could you share in your own, how it is that you got from where you were to where you are today?

·      Now, could you share with our listeners what is CallMiner and what exactly do you do?

·      The CallMiner CX Landscape Report, could you share with our listeners, I would say maybe three to five of the top themes or insights that we were able to garner from that data and that report?

·      What are your views as it relates to how leaders are actually utilising the CX data? Are they supporting and using it to make data driven decisions? Or is it just one of those reports that's generated and is there as a KPI but you're not really doing anything with the information.

·      Now, could you share with us what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

·      Could you also share with us maybe one or two books that you've read, it could be a book that you read recently, or even one that you read a very long time ago, but to this day, it still has had a great impact on you.

·      Now, could you also share with our listeners, Eric, what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

·      Where can listeners find you online?

·      Now, Eric, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or saying that during times of adversity or challenge you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you got derailed or you got off track, this quote kind of helps to get you back on track.

Highlights

Eric’s Journey

Me: Now, before we jump into the conversation, I always like to give our guests an opportunity to share a little bit about their journey. So, could you share in your own words, how it is that you got from where you were to where you are today?

Eric shared that Yanique did a pretty good job of covering his bio and in her intro, so thank you for that. So, he started his career out as essentially a BDR or an SDR is what they're called, typically, at least in SaaS, which he thinks is one of the best first jobs you can have, especially if you have aspirations of doing something in either sales or marketing. So, you talk to a tonne of CMOs, who that was their first job as well, so that's where it started. 

He spent a lot of time working in digital advertising and then ultimately integrated big agency advertising for a lot of big brands and then flipped over to the client side and worked at a tech company called Acquia, which was covered just briefly in that intro. It's an open DXP player, built on top of Drupal, which is an open source project. And essentially, think of it is an open source competitor to something like Adobe Experience Manager. So, spent three or four years at Acquia. 

And after that was introduced to the CEO at CallMiner, and had a lot of great discussions and he has been at CallMiner as their Chief Marketing Officer since 2020. And they've had a really nice run so far, they've gone from about 40 million ARR to a little over 80. And they're still seeing some nice growth despite maybe some of like macroeconomic headwinds.

What is CallMiner?

Eric shared that CallMiner, they are the leader in conversation intelligence, specifically focused in more on customer service. So, if you think of any large company that has one or more large customer service agents, contact centres. So, they'll utilize their platform to ingest, so record and analyze every single customer interaction, whether that be a phone call to a customer service agent, texts to and from an agent, chats with an agent, survey data, all of that gets analyzed, and it's able to then turn around in real time and provide that customer service agent with guidance on to how to be able to deliver a better customer experience, guidance on how to answer the questions or access resources better. And then ultimately, if you're able to mind through millions of customer interactions, there's extremely valuable insights that can be discovered. And so, through machine learning in their artificial intelligence, their platform delivers that which is the larger value proposition.

The CallMiner CX Lanscape Report and the Insigts Garner From That Data

Me: Alright, thank you for sharing that information on CallMiner. In leading up to the interview with you, Eric, I was shared a copy of the report, The CallMiner CX Landscape Report, and I'm sure you're familiar with it right as the Chief. So, could you share with our listeners, I would say maybe three to five of the top themes or insights that we were able to garner from that data and that report?

Eric stated that first and foremost, the CX Landscape Report that Yanique’s referencing, it's an annual report that they publish so, it's original research for them. So, they do a survey of 700 plus CX and contact centre leaders across the globe and then what they'll try to do is keep a lot of those questions the same year over year as new trends and topics tend to emerge, they’ll introduce a few new questions, but that way they're able to ultimately keep a pulse on what is important, and what sort of trends they're seeing with CX and contact centre leaders across the globe. 

In this particular one, so in the one that they published in late 2023, obviously, and this is not going to shock anyone but one of the biggest topics that was not new but he would say the focus on it was extremely heightened, is around artificial intelligence, you'd have to be living under a rock to not notice just the media firestorm around artificial intelligence, in particular generative AI in 2023 and even today. 

A lot of the typical data that they'll look at in that report, and the findings have to do with, like he said, trends that contact centre professionals and CX professionals are seeing within their own organizations. But he would highlight a few specific findings around artificial intelligence since that seemed to be the dominant theme. What's interesting is couple of themes would be that nearly this is not going to shock anybody, but nearly all of them are looking to implement some aspect of artificial intelligence in the next 12 to 18 months. The interesting sub stat to that is of those, over half aren't really sure what they're supposed to do basically, they know they need it, whether they were told this or whether they inherently think they need artificial intelligence in some way. So, they're investigating it, but they are a little bit lost in terms of where exactly to apply it. So, that was one of the first overarching thematics is everybody wants it, but they're not sure what to do with it. 

The next is, now that we've moved a little bit beyond, maybe like the hype cycle of all of this, where he thinks everybody is rushing to go do something, and you've got a little bit of fear of missing out. Now they've started moving into the stage where companies are actually starting to try and implement some of these things. And what they've moved into now is sort of the reality stage, which is they're starting to realize that there's some risk inherently with this, largely around compliance, around the protection of their brand. Because sometimes these generative AI models can have hallucinations, etc. So, he thinks they're getting into the reality stage of actually trying to implement it and realizing that you have to take a much more responsible approach to how we think about this, and that there is no AI silver bullet out there that's going to solve all of your CX problems. 

The last one, and the underlying aspect of this is actually something that they have heard, even before they started digging deeper into AI trends for CX leaders, and that has to do with how CX is positioned among the entire company/organization. So, in many cases, CX is disconnected from the contact centre, which is never good. Or you've got CX that is its own central thing, your meeting, you've got CXO, you've got a team. And then in other cases, CX is sort of sprinkled in multiple departments. And so what this kind of leads to is a bit of a disconnect, in terms of how you can roll out properly something as expansive as artificial intelligence within a piece of software across all these different pieces that are somewhat disconnected within the organization. 

The other thing it leads to is let's say you've got a contact centre, and you've got all this amazing data, because of the disconnections here, some of that incredible data coming out of all these customer interactions is never actually making it further than the contact centre because of those disconnects. So, the last theme has to do with how companies typically will measure CX or a voice of the customer programme. He thinks as everybody who might be listening to this podcast know CX when it all comes down to it is largely has grown up and is still inherently based on surveys. So, whether it be an NPS or CSAT survey, but these are solicited surveys, solicited answers from a survey which sometimes can be very polarizing. 

The big opportunity and where he think the industry is going is to combine that survey data with unsolicited data. And so this would be the data that comes out of contact centres and customer service centres, actual conversations that have a motion that we can measure versus solicited questions and answers. So, he thinks the combination of those two is where CX in general is going. And what you'll find is companies that are a little bit more mature and have a better org structure are already tapping into some of that data out of their contact centre.

Me: Wow, that's amazing. I think that's a great idea to merge the data that is collected from people who are actually talking to customers on a daily basis. I mean, the reality is, in a contact centre, customers only call for two reasons, right, to make a complaint or to make a request, there is no other reason why they're calling.

Eric agreed, that's correct. So again, you think of like, put it in the consumer perspective, other than the major influencers, when you go put something on a review about a hotel you stayed at or about some restaurant you went to on Yelp, largely it's because it was either an amazing experience that you just can't help yourself, or it was such a bad experience that you just can't help yourself. So, it becomes polarizing, which is why using surveys only is flawed to truly measure CX.

How Leaders Utilize CX Data

Me: Now, what do you think leaderships’ role is? Being in the industry and also being in marketing with a lot of exposure working with different organizations, what are your views as it relates to how leaders are actually utilizing the CX data? Are they supporting and using it to make data driven decisions? Or is it just one of those reports that's generated and is there as a KPI but you're not really doing anything with the information.

Eric stated that if you look at their CX landscape report or talk to most large companies, for the most part, they're using CSAT score which is survey based, or an NPS score as kind of a one metric, if you got all the way up to the CEO level that they're looking at on a regular basis to measure sort of the barometer of where their customer experience offering is at this point. 

He thinks to the question as a whatever a marketing leader in his case, one of the main things that they're responsible for is helping to better align the organization to where the right data is making its way up, helping to make sure that data is organized in a way that a CEO or a Chief Product Officer, which is another beneficiary of a lot of this unstructured data and the insights from it, or even in many cases, the CMO for him isn't able to get the insights, the root cause of understanding what some of these issues might be that they're trying to solve for. 

So, he thinks aligning the organzsation so that the data can reach the right people, and then making sure that data is packaged up in the right way to where it is executive friendly in some of the things that a leader should be thinking about and trying to make this better.

Me: And I can imagine also not just spitting out scores in terms of X percent of this type of customer feels this way, but linking it to tangible things, especially for leaders who think in dollars and cents, if we have a decline in this particular area over x period of time, what will this mean for our bottom line? What does it mean for future initiatives and innovation that we may need to implement? So, I would imagine that would be the kind of mindset they'd have to have.

Eric agreed, absolutely, excellent point. And even if as a first step you're continuing to just use NPS and CSAT, you should have an understanding to your point, by looking at all of your forecasting and previous years financials, you should be able to point to an increase in one point is going to result in this much the bottom line. So, he definitely agree with that point.

App, Website or Tool that Eric Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about an online resource that he can’t live without in his business, Eric shared that sadly, probably the calculator on his phone just because he’s constantly needing to tally up the percentages in different stats as he’s doing some of his own reporting at an executive level, he must open that thing up several times a day. 

From a website standpoint, they utilize the analyst reports quite a bit. So Forrester, who is one of the top tier analysts and the one who issued out the Forrester Wave that they're a leader in, so, he utilize them quite a bit from a research standpoint so that they can get a better understanding of where they predict the industry is going. So, he definitely tap into Forrester and Gartner quite a bit for that. 

And then from a marketing standpoint, and Demand Gen. So, they have several vendors that they work with, so 6sense for their ABM intent platform, Outreach for their BDR platform. And he finds that some of the best resources that they can utilize for training for those particular teams. So, he spent some time looking through their most recent thought leadership and training materials to try and identify how he can help his team get better.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Eric

When asked about books that have had a great impact, Eric stated that he would say from a business standpoint, so separate out fiction from a business standpoint, he thinks some of the classics like Good to Great: Why Some Companies Make the Leap and Others Don’t by Jim Collins, probably some of the ones that resonated with him the most and still, you can go back and reference. When he flip over to that sort of pleasure reading fiction, Great Gatsby by F. Scott Fitzgerald has always been his favourite book. It's not a long read probably one of the reasons why, but he thinks he must have read that book 50 times.

What Eric is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that he’s excited about, Eric stated just keeping it focused around CallMiner, his company and his team. He thinks one of the things that he’s really excited about is all of them that are in tech SaaS, they really had a rough 2023, whether it be, layoffs in terms of correction on over hiring and 2021. But mostly, a lot of this is coming from just general macro conditions, macroeconomic conditions globally. 

He thinks what he’s excited about is towards the end of 2023, they started to see a light at the end of the tunnel and sent some positive signals that they're turning the corner a bit, which he thinks anyone who works in tech should be excited about. He'll be interested to see how Q1 and maybe Q2, go for 2024 to see if that continues to more positive signals, and they start to see their prospects and their customer base be a little less cautious with their budgets and a little less conservative and be willing to maybe do some expansion and some testing within the platforms that they offer. So, he’s excited about that. And he thinks most tech companies are right now.

Where Can We Find Eric Online

Website – www.callminer.com

LinkedIn - CallMiner

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Eric Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Eric stated that he doesn't know if this would be adversity, but they're constantly he feels like they're in the midst of adversity when they're trying to roll new campaigns out, roll new products out to the market. And something that he and several of his other C level peers, “Perfection is the enemy of progress.” So, he thinks it's very easy to get in your own way, and try to make something so perfect that you know it's going to be success and that's just a fallacy. And it's much better to do all the due diligence, do all the work to make it as good as you can. But get it out there and then learn from it early and make some changes to it than it is to just be unrealistic that you're going to be able to perfect something before you launch it.

Me: True. That's a very good quote. Excellent point.

Eric stated that he doesn't know who to attribute that quote to, by the way, but somebody wrote it.

Me: Well, Eric, I just want to tell you, thank you so much for taking time out of your very busy schedule and hopping on our podcast, and sharing all of this great content as it relates to what CallMiner does, about the report that your company had published that you publish on an annual basis and the great insights that were able to be derived from it, as well as moving forward what organisations can look towards in terms of where they should be placing their energy in order to be yielding the greatest success as it relates to customer experience. So, just want to extend greatest level of gratitude. Thank you so much.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

•     Good to Great: Why Some Companies Make the Leap and Others Don’t by Jim Collins

•     Great Gatsby by F. Scott Fitzgerald

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners 

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty.

This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately!

This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others.

Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

Jim Kraus is the President of Buyer Persona Institute (BPI) and a leading authority on buyer personas and buying insights. BPI’s buyer persona research and workshop methodologies have become a gold standard for thousands of marketers in hundreds of companies worldwide that rely on these studies to reveal everything a prospective buyer needs to know and experience to have confidence in their solution. Marketers use these insights to develop strategies and messaging that drive more leads, improve conversion rates, and help sales hit their numbers. 

In addition to his work at BPI, Jim is an avid blogger, author of the Buyer Persona Buzz newsletter, and is currently working on a second edition of the book Buyer Personas with BPI’s founder, Adele Revella. He also frequently speaks at events and podcasts to advanced thinking around buyer personas and buyer insights more broadly. 

Outside of work, Jim enjoys travel, reading, sports, and spending time with his family. 

Questions 

·      I always love to give our guests an opportunity for them to share in their own words, a little bit about how you got from where you were to where you are today.

·      You mentioned that you just completed your manuscript for your second book, which should be released later this summer. Could you share a little bit with our listeners what can they expect? And maybe how it is that you decided to even write a second manuscript as a follow up to your first book.

·      Could you share with us maybe two to three things that you believe are critical for an organisation to achieve that trust with customers if it is that you're trying to attract that buyer and gain their trust?

·      Now, as it relates to the buyer persona and the different aspects that make up that whole process. Apart from trust, what do you think is the key most important step or component in that process that can never be eliminated regardless of the industry that you're in?

·      Now, Jim, could you also share with our listeners what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

·      Now, could you also share with our listeners, Jim, maybe one or two books that you've read, it could be a book that you read recently, or even one that you read a very long time ago, but it has had a great impact on you.

·      Now, Jim, can you share with our listeners what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

·      Where can listeners find you online?

·      Now before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge you'll tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you got derailed or you got off track, this quote kind of helps to get you back on track. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Jim’s Journey

Me: Now, I know we've read a little bit about your journey. And I always love to give our guests an opportunity for them to share in their own words, a little bit about how you got from where you were to where you are today.

Jim shared that his entire career has really been spent on understanding markets, understanding customers, understanding buyers, really just trying to provide market insights that help organizations make more informed decisions. He’s done it in a variety of places, both on the client side and as a consultant over the past three decades or so. Over the past 15 years, he has been a principal at a KS&R which is a full service market research firm. And they are working with Buyer Persona Institute, he’s leading by Buyer Persona Institute as division of KS&R right now. And they're 100% focused on understanding buyers and more specifically, understanding the buying decisions that your prospective buyers make so that you can make more informed decisions around your marketing and sales strategies. So, his whole career has been focused on insights, right now it's over the last couple of years in particular, been really focused on understanding prospective buyers to help marketing and sales.

What Customers Can Expect from Second Book?

Me: Now, in our pre interview conversation, you mentioned that you just completed your manuscript for your second book, which should be released later this summer. Could you share a little bit with our listeners what can they expect? And maybe how it is that you decided to even write a second manuscript as a follow up to your first book.

Jim shared that the first book, Buyer Personas was written by Adele Revella, who is the founder of Buyer Persona Institute about 9 years ago. And him and her co-authored the second edition, this updated and expanded edition. And the main reason that they decided to update it is one, a lot has changed over the last 8 to 9 years.  

But the foundation of Buyer Personas, they can talk a little bit about what a buyer persona is perhaps really hasn't changed. At the end of the day, you're trying to really understand buyers, what their wants and needs are and what experiences that they expect so they have full confidence buying from you, that's essentially what you're competing on, you're competing on trust. 

So, they developed the second edition of the book that will be out this summer, and they're adding some things to it that they think will be really valuable for readers, even those that have picked up the first book many years ago. So, they've added more information about how to design a buyer persona study. They've added a lot of information about how to add to do quantitative survey research to get even more insight outside of your buyer persona. They're spending more time in the second edition about how to use buyer persona insights and very tangible ways to improve marketing and sales performance and win more business. 

The other place obviously, the fourth place that they're spending more time on this second edition is just defining what a buyer persona is and isn't, a lot of people have kind of a pre-conceived notion about a buyer persona is, they spent a little more time in this second book explaining why a buyer persona focus on understanding the buying decision is so much more powerful for marketers than just understanding a particular individual or role in the buying decision, which is kind of the traditional definition of a buyer persona.

Trust as a Critical Factor 

Me: Now, in your review just know as it relates to the book, one of the things you mentioned that jumped out at me is that we're all competing as it relates to the buyers that we're trying to attract on trust. And so trust is a very big, and it's a critical theme that I believe in customer experience is critical if you want to build retention, higher retention, and high loyalty in your business. So, could you share with us maybe two to three things that you believe are critical for an organization to achieve that trust with customers if it is that you're trying to attract that buyer and gain their trust?

Jim shared that one of the things to think about is, a lot of times when you say the word buyer persona, people associate it with profiling a particular role in the decision process, right. Like maybe you have a buyer persona for a CIO if you sell tech products, or a finance manager if you sell financial products or services, etc. The challenge with that is, if you profile those roles, it doesn't give you a lot of information about how do you actually gain the trust of the buyer who's making a buying decision for a particular product and service. 

So, let's say he’s selling a CRM system, that's his offering and he has a CIO buyer persona and it tells him information about certain demographics about what a typical CIO looks like maybe their overall challenges and priorities. But that doesn't do very much once a CIO, for example, is involved in purchasing a CRM solution, because when they're purchasing a CRM solution, what they care about most is two things, they care number one, that they're going to achieve all the outcomes and benefits that they want from this investment, right. It's an important investment. So, they care about, “Am I going to get everything that I want out of this?” 

The second big thing, which is often overlooked is, “How do I avoid making a mistake?” Because again, a lot of times, particularly when you're talking about higher consideration buying decisions where you're looking at multiple options, there's multiple influencers involved, it's not just a transaction sale. A lot of times buyers are buying something like that for the first time, or they haven't bought it in a long time, so they're going to be anxious, they don't want to make the wrong decision. They don't want to go with something where something goes wrong. 

So, what this all comes down to when you think about the whole thing, both elements of that, how do you give them what they need, reduce the risk of something going wrong. 

Essentially, what you're competing on is trust. Price aside. Who do they feel is going to do the best job of making them feel secure, that they're going to get the outcomes that they really need and that nothing is going to go wrong? 

So, that's kind of the key and the buyer persona is that the methodology that they'd like to talk about defined is really based on understanding the buying decision and specific components of the buying decision in order to build that trust.

Key Elements/Steps in the Buyer Persona Process

Me: Now, as it relates to the buyer persona and the different aspects that make up that whole process, based on your experience and the fact that you've been in this industry and you’re a subject matter expert as it relates to that. Apart from trust, what do you think is the key most important step or component in that process that can never be eliminated regardless of the industry that you're in?

Jim shared that when you're talking about understanding the buying decision, there's five different areas of insight that you really want to understand about the buying decision that your prospective buyers are making. So, whoever's listening out there, think about your particular product or service or solution, and you may have multiple products and services, and that's fine, but pick one and think about it. 

There's five things you really want to know about buyers that are making a buying decision about something that you offer and that your competitors offer too. Number one is you want to understand what they call the Priority Initiatives. Another way to think about priority initiatives, these are the triggers, these are the things that are getting buyers to initially start either looking for a solution like the one that you have.

The reason that's so important to understand what those are is because you want to meet buyers where they are. So, when they're first starting, and they're anxious, and they're learning about this whole category of whatever you offer, what is the starting point. So, when you talk about how you approach them, and your marketing and your sales approaches, any kind of way you interact with them, you want to know those triggers, so that you can really create that quick sense that, “Hey, here's a company that really understands me.” That's the first tick of the box as far as trust. 

The second thing that you want to understand about this buying decision is they call it Success Factors. And these are outcomes, these are benefits, these are at the end of the day, what results do these buyers need from this important investment that they're making. And you want to know that because obviously, you want to be talking about those. You want to be developing use cases, customer references, thought leadership, all kinds of things that you can do that speak to these key outcomes that they want. So, you want to know what those are implicitly. 

The third thing you really want to understand is, they call it Perceived Barriers. The way to think about this one is, it is all the concerns and fears that buyers have buying your solution, not just yours, but all the alternatives you're looking at, because they're going to be anxious, they're going to have trepidations.

·      What are those things that are getting them nervous?

·      What are the things that are eliminating providers and consideration?

So, you want to know what those are ahead of time so you can proactively address those things. 

The fourth area insight, there's five altogether, the fourth area is called Decision Criteria. And decision criteria is the traditional sales cycle. This is kind of middle later stages of the sales cycle when buyers are getting smarter about the category. And they're starting to ask really specific questions, because now they're really starting to make comparisons across the different alternatives that they're looking at. So, decision criteria or deals, all the questions that your buyers are going to be asking you in some shape or fashion. 

And the fifth and final one is Buyers Journey. So, everything he said earlier is kind of the mindset, it's the needs, the fears, the attitudes, the buyers journey is

·      What are the actual steps that your buyers take to identify who they're going to consider?

·      How do they whether down on their options?

·      How do they make a final decision?

·      What are those steps?

·      Who are the influencers involved?

·      And what are the information sources they use to really develop an opinion, and an evaluation of what they're ultimately going to do?

If you take those five things, those five areas, they call them The Five Rings of Buying Insight that is so powerful, because if you would know those five things, you have everything you need to develop marketing and sales strategies to give buyers what they need to get to make very competent buying decisions and ultimately select you, which is the goal.

Me: For sure. So, give me that coin again, The Five Rings of buying Insight.

Jim shared, The Five Rings of buying Insight, they talked about it a lot in the book. It's just a name they gave to it. But the five things that they talked about are really important.

App, Website or Tool that Jim Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about online resource that he can’t live without in his business, Jim stated that that's a good one. Well, he'll say a couple of things come to mind. One is, by the way, the way to develop your buyer persona, and that's going to lead to the answer to the question which will make more sense. 

The best way to develop your buyer persona get those insights is to talk to recent buyers. What he means by recent buyers is buyers that have recently made the exact same buying decision that you're trying to influence, these aren't necessarily your current customers, these are individuals that have been involved buying a solution could be yours, could be a competitors in the past 6-12 months, and do in depth interviews with them so you understand their entire buying story from the moment they have a need for that particular solution until the time they make a final decision. The interviews are typically 30 to 40 minutes. 

So, the reason number one it's an important point because buyers are the experts, the only ones that can give you that information. And then that leaves him to answer the question which is they have an app that helps them analyze all those interviews. 

So, when you're doing those interviews, you often have 10-15 pages of unstructured data, right, text data. And they have an app that helps them make sense of all that data so that they can develop those insights. So, that's a pretty critical app for them to use he would say. 

The other really important one for them is they've been using different Gen AI tools more and more much like many of the listeners are using. They use a lot of common ones, they've actually developed one that they're kind of using internally using major providers, they kind of use it as a testbed for their own and that's been invaluable to help them analyze interviews a little bit better, it's help them develop deeper profiles of buyers. It's not the end all be all, it's a supplemental thing. It's enables them to do some things quicker, but he would say those are the two that come to mind.

Me: Would you mind sharing the app that helps you do the interview analysis?

Jim shared that that's a proprietary app, so that's one that they actually built in house so that they can analyse interviews through to The Five Rings of Buying Insight.

Me: Do you know if there's any on open market that the listeners could tap into if they wanted to utilize such an application?

Jim shared that not that he’s aware of. So, The Five Rings of Buying Insight is something that they've developed and he doesn't think there's any tool that's available to do that. He will say that you can use and they actually have this in the book, the second book, you can use any one of the commonly, whether it's Chat GPT, or another one, you can use those to develop insights from these interviews to analyze across The Five Rings. 

And in the book, that'll be out in the summer, actually, they give some instructions for different queries that you can use to help you do that.

Me: Very good. So, the mere fact that you said there's nothing on open market, I see that as an opportunity for all the listeners out there for anybody who wants to develop that tool, because we all know people are buying to solve their problems and clearly this seems like a problem that needs to be solved.

Jim agreed and shared that they're looking at that too as well.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Jim

When asked about books that have had the greatest impact, Jim shared that one book that he’s read about that he really liked a lot, they actually reference it in their book is called The JOLT Effect: How High Performers Overcome Customer Indecision by Matthew Dixon and Ted McKenna, the book’s about a year and a half old about this point. And it's really neat what they were able to do, COVID hasn't had many silver linings, the one silver lining in this case was that they were able to work with a couple of other firms to record literally millions of sales interactions between sales people, and prospective buyers over a certain period during COVID because a lot of those conversations were taking place on Zoom, and WebEx and, and Microsoft Teams, and just different ways that they were able to record these conversations where they could never be recorded before. 

What that allowed them to do is this great analysis on all this data. And they just found out a lot of really cool things that we intuitively know. One of the major things they write about in the book is, what high percentage of one of the biggest obstacles that salespeople face is the dreaded no decision where you're working with a prospect, they go through this lengthy sales process, and then the prospect ends up buying nothing. Traditionally, there was always this belief that when somebody didn't buy something, it was purely because they wanted to stick with the status quo, they said, “Hey, we did our assessment. And we said, you know what, we think what we're doing now is better.”  

What the study that Dixon and McKenna did that they described in The JOLT Effect showed was that that's not really the case, that's part of the time that's true. The other majority of time is that buyers just can't make a decision, they're struggling to make a decision because it's so hard to, it's very difficult. And they're very nervous about something going wrong, they don't want to be the one to screw it up, saying, “What we have now may not be great, we all know it has problems, but I just feel like it's a little bit too risky to buy anything.” 

So, their analysis cast a light on this with hard data for the first time and the book also goes into different ways that you can get around that. And the reason it was so perfectly timed for them at Buyer Persona Institute, is it lines with the fact that you are competing on gaining a buyer’s trust and competence is the most important thing that you really need to do. So, that's why that was a pretty important book for them in the last couple of years.

Me: As you were talking, just know, before I actually read my next question, just again, from the conversation flow. You mentioned that buyers sometimes don't know, like they're confused, the anxiety of making a decision. Would you find and I'm asking this question as a buyer myself, especially when it comes to food. Would you find that for example, in a restaurant business, if there are too many items on the menu, it's harder to make a decision or do you believe that the less options that exist make it easier for the buyer to make a decision? What has your research shown where that is concerned?

Jim shared that it really depends on the category. So, you mentioned food, which is a very, very different category than if you're buying a software solution for your company, for example. 

So, the answer is it really depends. What he can tell you and what The JOLT Effect showed very clearly is that they've seen in all the research and all the interviews that they've done is that buyers are trying to make sense of the world, right. Whether you have a lot of choices or not, and a lot of choices exasperate the problem. But if you're making a decision, especially one that you haven't made in a while or in your case, if it's a restaurant you haven't been to in a while, you're trying to orient yourself, so how can you educate the buyer as quickly and confidently as you can about this is what this world looks like right now, here's your alternatives. Let me help you make sense of this.

And then once he’s educated you and help you make sense of it, how can he help you confidently make a decision to purchase something. So, it's not always the number of choices, a lot of it is how those choices are communicated and how much effort is put into advising the prospective buyer and really helping them and guiding them making the decision. Because you could go walk in a restaurant that has 30 menu choices and they do things that make it very easy for you to understand what those are, you go into another restaurant using your example and it's just kind of chaotic and they don't make it easy for you to figure out what your choices are.

What Jim is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that he’s excited about, Jim stated that we mentioned that the book was a huge one, they just got the manuscript in about a week and a half ago. So, that was a really huge one that took a lot of his time over the last three months or so. So, that's a big one that they're really excited about. Aside from that, he would say one of the things that their team is working on that he’s excited about is it's kind of practising what they preach. So, a lot of what they do is providing insights so that companies can make more informed marketing and sales decisions, and more focused relevant content and messaging for their prospective buyers. 

They're doing the same thing, you can always improve your value proposition, you can always make it easier for buyers to understand what is your differentiated value, what is the unique thing that you provide. Number one is helping buyers understand what are the options out there. And then number two, helping them understand very quickly, how are you different, there's this world of whatever you're offering is, how do you make it easier for them to figure out how you're different and what does it mean for them? What is the value for them in that? 

So, that's something he’s kind of excited that they're working on for their own business and just sharpening the saw, so to speak, as far as how they talk about their business, deliverables, proposals, all those kinds of things, they're really taking a fresh look at all of that.

Where Can We Find Jim Online

Website – http://www.buyerpersona.com/

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jimkraus

LinkedIn – Buyer Persona Buzz

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Jim Uses

When asked about a quote that he tends to revert to, Jim shared that he has one that is probably a little dramatic. But it's the point that he’s a big a huge history buff from Big World War II, Winston Churchill isn't one of his favourite historical characters, historical figures and he has a quote that says, “When you're walking through hell, keep walking.” 

And he loves that quote because it's so simple and it just basically means that from a business perspective, nothing we're doing is hell right. But the point is, if you are going through times of adversity, or something's not working out exactly how you want it, just keep walking down the path, if you have to divert the path a little bit, that's fine. But don't get stuck, just keep moving it along and things will get better, you will figure out there's a solution to every problem, right. Just keep working the problem, you'll arrive at it. So, that's one he likes just because again, he’s a history buff, it's a very simple one and it just says so much. So, of the bunch he can think of, that'd be the one he'd probably pick.

Me: Thank you so much for sharing, Jim. Now, we would like to extend our deepest level of gratitude to you, Jim, for taking time out of your very busy schedule and hopping on this podcast, and sharing with us your journey as it relates to developing the key elements of the buyer's persona, talking about your new book that you've revamped along with your co-author and just really delving into what are some of the key aspects when you're trying to attract the right type of buyer to ensure that the trust is there and to ensure that you are truly feeding into the specific needs and desires that that buyer is looking for and limiting as much anxiety that they may have as it relates to making that decision. So, I really enjoyed this conversation, I just want to say thank you so much.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

•     The JOLT Effect: How High Perfomers Overcome Customer Indecision by Matthew Dixon and Ted McKenna

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners 

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty.

This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately!

This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others.

Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!