Jason Feifer is the editor in chief of Entrepreneur Magazine, a nonstop optimism machine, and a widely recognized authority on business and how people navigate change. He is the author of the best-selling book Build For Tomorrow, a startup advisor, and host of the podcast Help Wanted and Problem Solvers. LinkedIn name him a “Top Voice in Entrepreneurship”. 

Jason has also had decades-long career in national media, which included working as an editor at Men’s Health, Fast Company, Maxim, and Boston magazine, and writing about business and technology for the Washington Post, Slate, New York Magazine, and others. 

Questions

• We always like to give our guests an opportunity to just share in their own words, a little bit about their journey, and how they got from wherever they were to where they are today. So, could you share that with us?
• So, Build For Tomorrow, a book that focuses on startup advisory, and I just kind of want you to take a little time to share with our listeners, what the book is about? Who is the book targeted towards? And how do you believe the book has been helping others in their different careers and businesses?
• Now the book focuses on four phases of this change. The first is the panic, then you have the adaptation and the new normal and then that phase where we're never going back. So, could you just elaborate just a little bit, maybe give an example of each just to kind of cement that information across to our listeners.
• What are three-character traits that you found has to really be intrinsic to organizations or persons who lead organizations to help them really be customer centric?
• Now, could you share with our listeners, what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?
• Can you also share with us what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.
• Where can listeners find you online?
• Now, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off track, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track. Do you have one of those?

Highlights 

Jason’s Journey

Me: We always like to give our guests an opportunity to just share in their own words, a little bit about their journey, and how they got from where they were to where they are today. So, could you share that with us?

Jason shared that in brief, he started in media, he was a community newspaper reporter fresh out of college. Eventually, he got into magazines, he moved to New York City to work for Men's Health magazine, pretty different from Entrepreneur, and bounced around to a lot of different national magazines until he got to Entrepreneur. 

And at first, he really treated Entrepreneur like a media project. His job was to do what he had done everywhere else, which was to be an editor and to tell great stories and to think about the media brand. 

But over time, two things happen. Number one is that people because of the title, Editor in Chief of Entrepreneur Magazine, they started to treat him as an authority in entrepreneurship, which frankly, he was uncomfortable with for a while because his background was in media, until he came to realize that so much of business is not about the fundamentals of business, but it's really about the fundamentals of human thinking, and logic and reinvention, and the kinds of things that he had put himself through in his own career. 

He thinks that we all have to recognize what our incredible skill is, and it's going to be different for everybody. His belief is that every human being has the same fundamental skill, and that is pattern recognition. 

The difference among us is that some of us are better at recognizing different kinds of patterns, right. And so, his pattern is how people think and how people tell stories and how people understand the world. And he came to realize that by spending an immense amount of time with entrepreneurs, he was starting to absorb their way of thinking, starting to act like that, he’s starting to launch his own businesses, starting to advise startups, and that he could lean into telling their stories, processing their insights in a way that would be incredibly useful for other entrepreneurs. And that has led him to the career that he has now.

About Jason’s Book – Build For Tomorrow

Me: So, I was lucky enough to actually read your article in Entrepreneur Magazine. I think it was the February issue that I purchased when I was travelling, how failure can feel good, and it really intrigued me. So, I reached out to you on LinkedIn, and graciously, you accepted my request and here we are today having you on our podcast. So, amazing. So, in your bio, it was also mentioned that you recently published a book that would have been September of 2022. So, Build For Tomorrow, a book that focuses on startup advisory, and I just kind of want you to take a little time to share with our listeners, what the book is about? Who is the book targeted towards? And how do you believe the book has been helping others in their different careers and businesses?

Jason shared that Build For Tomorrow is a book for anybody who's going through change, particularly going through any kind of career change though. 

He’s heard from a lot of readers that it applied well to personal changes as well. And the book is rooted in this philosophy that he’s developed, which is that when he meets the most successful leaders and entrepreneurs, he finds that they have all developed a unique personal relationship with change, they understand who they are in times of change, they understand how change can impact them in a positive way. And that unique relationship with change enables them to grow and build in ways that others can't. 

And he wanted to write a book that distilled the experiences and the wisdom of people who have successfully navigated change and help others with a roadmap for how to do it too. That is just simply the most important thing that any entrepreneur can do is to be adaptable, to recognize that the things that are changing around them are great opportunities, and then to understand how to systematically approach that and that's the book that he wrote. And he’s had a really tremendous feedback from it, it's really gratifying.

Navigating Change – Understanding the Four Phases

Me: Awesome! Now the book focuses on four phases of this change. The first is the panic, then you have the adaptation and the new normal and then that phase where we're never going back. So, could you just elaborate just a little bit, maybe give an example of each just to kind of cement that information across to our listeners.

Jason shared that he found that everybody goes through change in the same four phases listed them out panic, adaptation, new normal, wouldn't go back. Let's focus on panic and wouldn’t go back. Panic, you know when you're panicked, you know when you're feeling that, you maybe are feeling that right now as he’s talking because something massive has changed in your work, because you feel like your industry is shifting underneath you. Who knows. And the reason why we panic is because decades of psychological research have confirmed what's called loss aversion theory. Loss Aversion theory is the recognition that our human brains are programmed to protect against loss more than to seek gain. 

So, when something changes in our lives and or in our work, the first thing that we do is we identify the things that we're comfortable and familiar with and then we start to think about how we're going to lose them, we're acquainting change with loss. And then we start to extrapolate it, well, because I've lost this thing, I'm going to lose that thing because I lost that thing, then I’m going to lose that other thing. Now, everything starts to feel like it's disappearing, now, we are panicking. But you can't do that forever, you can't panic forever, it's too exhausting. 

Eventually, you start to look around and say, well, what do I have to work with. We get to adaptation. We start to build a new normal, a new foundation, something comfortable and familiar, again, a new normal. And then we get to wouldn't go back, that moment where we say I have something so new and valuable that I wouldn't want to go back to a time before I had it. 

And he can give examples of that. But the pattern that he’s seeing is that people are often forced into or sometimes are proactively making changes that force them to reconsider the fundamentals of the work that they do. And what they discover is that the way in which they were working before or the thing that they were doing, or the way that they were delivering value to their clients or their customers, that that wasn't the only way to do it. They thought that it was…..but it wasn't. 

And in fact, it was a lesser version of a better way to do it that had never been explored because oftentimes people don't feel incentivized to scrap something that's working, or that sort of working, and take the risk of figuring out how to build something better.

But when change comes along, when you are disrupted, when you're forced to react to the things that are shifting around you, you start to ask yourself some really fundamental questions about whether or not the things that you thought wouldn't work maybe are worth trying. And some of those are going to become the best opportunities for you going forward.

Me: All right, so change. I remember over the years, even going to university and starting my working life and starting a business, I've always heard the phrase that change is constant. And I haven't engaged in the book, I did download it on Audible, and I've started listening to it but I haven't completed it as yet. But what your four phases reminded me of was that change is constant. So, regardless of a pandemic emerging across the world, or kids coming into the play or getting new employees, like change is constant, we're constantly going through change in different aspects of our lives, so your phases definitely reminded me of that.

Jason stated that that's something that you can operationalize. 

So, the idea that change is constant is a familiar one for many people. But he thinks often you hear that and you don't know what to do with it. Okay, change is constant, so what? 

Here's the starting point. What would happen if you made decisions today based on the knowledge that the thing that you're working on now will have to change tomorrow? 

What decisions would you make when you know that? 

It starts to shift the way in which you work, you start to for example, do a thing that he calls change before you must where you start to make decisions that are hard today because they will benefit you when things change tomorrow. 

A story that he’d love to tell, he won't tell it in full here, because it takes a while but divided in the book is of a brewer, a guy who started a Beer Brewery in Delaware named Sam, his company's called Dogfish. And he had a runaway hit product in a beer called 60-minute IPA, people love this beer, it was on track to become 75% to 80% of all sales of his company, and he artificially limited supply. 

So, this thing was on track to become 75% to 80% of all sales at Dogfish, he capped that at 50% and that meant that people were furious at him, restaurants couldn't get his beer stocked, bars couldn't get his beer stock. And he says, “Sam, why would you do that? Why would you limit sales of your best-selling product?” And the answer that he gave me was because tastes change. And he knew that if he allowed this one beer to be a runaway hit so that everybody who ever went into a bar or a restaurant encountered just this beer of his, just this one 60-minute IPA. Well, then at some point IPAs, India Pale Ale, popular bitter style appeals is going to become less popular than it was at that one moment. 

And if people's impressions of his company were shaped by one beer by an IPA, then he was going to be known as a hot IPA brand. And that's fine until tastes change, they will change at which point he won't be a hot IPA brand, he will be an old brand, he'll be a dead brand. And so, he wanted to do something that was painful today for the benefit of tomorrow, anticipating that change will come. 

And the payoff for the story is amazing, which is that Sam limited sales of his best-selling beer when people would order it, he would try to get them to buy or stock or serve other styles of beer that he made. And as a result, he shaped perception of his company Dogfish not as a hot IPA brand, but as an innovative brand. And you know what you can do with an innovative brand is you can sell it for $300 Million Dollars, which is exactly what he did. 

That's not something you could have done if he had just thought about how to profit today, how to only succeed based on what was working today. That's what it means to build the reality of constant change into the decisions that you make today, know that they will require change tomorrow. So, how can you anticipate that and be proactive about it.

Me: Brilliant. I love that story, Jason Awesome! Thank you so much for sharing. 

Essential Character Traits for a Leader

Me: Now, Jason, as Editor of Entrepreneur Magazine, I'm sure that you interface with a lot of CEOs and a lot of business leaders across different industries across the world. And so, I wanted based on your expert opinion and your exposure to persons of this nature, what do you believe are maybe three, it's a kind of a generic question. But I like to hear from the subject matter experts, three let's say character traits that you found has to really be intrinsic to organizations or persons who lead organizations to help them really be customer centric, because we're all about navigating the customer experience. And the reality is, if you don't have the right people doing the things that your customers want and creating value, you're not going to have a successful business. And if your customers don't feel like they're getting value, and they choose to do business with your competition or not do business with you at all, over time you will not have a successful business. So, it's twofold and you want that person who can navigate the personalities and navigate as you said, the change and the many different things that will come forth, what would you say are three-character traits that you think someone like that would need?

Jason shared that the first thing that comes to mind was a conversation that he had with this guy Matt, who at the time was the president of Reebok, Reebok the athletic wear company. And he told him (Jason) and this was the first time he'd heard this phrase then he started hearing it everywhere, which was customer obsession. 

He said, “We're really obsessed, we're completely customer obsessed at Reebok and we want to understand them, and we don't want to understand their needs.” And he’s heard that from a lot of people, but he had never heard the next thing that he told me, which was this metaphor that he uses, he says, “Look, we are in a moment in business where quality is assumed.” 

Where if you let's say, wanted to start a scissor company making scissors, you could not advertise yourself as the sharpest scissors. Because every scissors is the sharpest scissors right? It's easy enough now to manufacture scissors that every scissors is the sharpest scissors. 

So, if you want to be successful selling scissors, you can't lean on quality alone. Quality has to be table stakes, quality is what people take for granted, it's what they expect. The next place that you need to go is who exactly are you serving? 

And how do you relate to them? 

How do you tell a story that makes them proud to use your scissors, that makes them feel like when they use their scissors, they're exploring a version of themselves. 

That's what it means to be customer obsessed is to understand the way in which your customers thinks to the degree to which you can tell your story in a way that relates directly to them. 

Now, he’s not telling you something that you don't know based on serving customers, but that scissors metaphor really stuck with him because he thinks a lot of people, their starting point is, well, because I make the best….. But if you take that away from yourself, and you say, “Being the best at whatever is not enough, because quality by itself doesn't sell, then what else am I doing here?” 

He has a friend and he’ll make this kind of point number two. Her name is Rochelle DeVos. And she is a Consumer Insights Research Specialist and is brilliant and understanding consumer psychology and has taught him a lot but the framework that she shared with him and again has really stuck with him the most is so much so that he actually has it on his desktop and he’s looking at it right now to read from Rochelle's thing. 

So, she says, “Look, if you want to understand how to relate to customers, then you need to fill out the following sentence. “When (context) I want solution so that (benefit) from the perspective of the consumer.” So, give you an example that she uses from a compression sock company, a company that makes kind of tight socks for people who have foot pain. 

So, she says alright, when context I want solutions so that benefit. When context, when my feet hurt from standing all day, it's the context in which there's a need for a solution. I want a solution. I want to feel comfortable while still looking cute. 

Her example is a company that makes compression socks for women. So, that's something that they are concerned about. 

So, that benefit, so that I can do my job, be present for my family, enjoy my life while not standing out because of my foot pain. 

What's so important about understanding this when context I want solutions so that benefit is that most entrepreneurs get stuck at solution. 

They talk about the solution that they have, I've made compression socks, I've made compression socks for when your feet hurt. 

But the real conversion, the real connection to the audience comes at the benefit. It comes at being able to articulate the value that your customer is going to get from using your solution. 

Customers don't care about solutions, nobody wakes up in the morning and they're like, I want compression socks. What they think is I want to do my job and be present for my family and enjoy my life. That's what they want. So, how do you understand the benefits that they want enough that you can have a conversation with them that is benefit oriented, because that is where you win. 

And Rochelle suggests the way to do this is, is to be constantly in touch with and survey your consumer so that you understand how they think and how they talk and the language that they use. And he finds that perspective to be incredibly powerful. 

So, if we're making a list here so that you know number one he thinks is to be customer obsessed to the point where you recognize the quality itself is not going to connect to your customer. 

Point number two is to be benefit oriented, to understand your consumer at a level that is deep enough that they will, that they can articulate the benefit of that consumer is seeking. 

And if he had to come up with a third one, qualities of leaders who are customer centric.

He’d say that there is a level of inefficiency that leaders are willing to tolerate, to learn from their customers. 

A conversation that always stuck with me is a woman who had started, he can't remember the name of the company, but it was a paint company, she makes like, really cool paint colors, and it had been quite successful. And the company has grown, it's actually been acquired, she's still running it. 

She has a large team, she still is in her brand's Instagram DM’S every day, corresponding with customers, if somebody DM’S that brand on Instagram, the CEO responds, and that is deeply inefficient. 

But it has helped her stay in touch with her consumer in a way that she feels she would lose if she retracted from that and she just focused on all the operations of the business. 

She wants to be in touch in a way that is inefficient. She has a tolerance for inefficiency, because that is the thing that is ultimately enabling her to understand her customers’ needs today and where those shifts are tomorrow.

Me: Wow, that's amazing, a CEO that's in the DM’S. That's brilliant.

App, Website or Tool that Jason Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about online resource that can’t live without in his business, Jason shared that these days, he has been absolutely loving Fathom. So, you can get at www.fathom.video and Fathom is a AI note taking tool. 

He has it in all of his calls and meetings now. And it just does a great job of contextually summarizing what was said, provides a transcript, it's not a perfect transcript, but it's close enough so that you can go back and find what somebody said, and then it's very searchable. 

So, he found that to be an excellent way of passively collecting all the information that is being shared and discussed so that he has now a kind of catalogue of it and an easy way to go back and find it. He strongly suggests just having something like this running in the background of all your meetings now. So, again, it's just www.fathom.video is the company's website.

What Jason is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something he’s excited about, Jason shared that he’s been working on a newsletter for the last year, it's called One Thing Better. And the tagline that he has for it is, “One way each week. One way to be more successful and satisfied at work and build a career or company that you love.” 

And each week is him sharing a strategy. Usually it's a story that articulates it, and then an exercise that people can use to think more adaptively, to be more open minded, to find opportunities in places you're not looking, to just feel better about work. 

His wife refers to this newsletter as work therapy. And he’s been just incredibly gratified by the response that he’s getting to this newsletter, it pretty quickly grew to 50,000 subscribers. 

And he just gets these emails from people telling him that they print out his emails, and they keep them on their desk to read regularly, or they forward it to their friends who are struggling with something. 

And he’s so excited to have created something that can have that kind of personal connection. If you want to check it out, it's www.onethingbetter.email, that's the web address. And he just thinks there's a lot of potential in exploring the newsletter space and in creating things that are both connecting with people on a business but personal level as well. That's a space he really like to live in. So, he’s been excited to be building that and to see where it goes. 

Me: So, we'll definitely have the link to the newsletter in the show notes of this episode. And I imagine once they subscribe, they can have access to previous newsletters that were published, correct?

Yes, as soon as you visit the website, you will see the back catalogue.

Where Can We Find Jason Online

Newsletter – www.onethingbetter.email 

LinkedIn – Jason Feifer

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Jason Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Jason shared that he’s not big on motivational quotes, he doesn't get driven that way. But he’s had a lot of people say really impressive things to him that stick with him. 

One of them came from Malcolm Gladwell, who is a best-selling author and podcaster, and so on. And they were talking about work and so on and he had said this line to him which he loved, which was, “Self-conceptions are powerfully limiting.” 

The idea being that if you have too narrow vision of yourself, then you will limit all the opportunities that could come your way, that don't fit that narrow definition of self. So, self-conceptions are powerfully limiting and that is something he thinks about a lot as he pursues things that takes him out of his earlier conceptions of himself.

Me: Thank you so much for sharing. All right, Jason, we will just want to extend our deepest gratitude to you for taking time out of your very busy schedule and hopping on this podcast with us today, talking about your best-selling book Build For Tomorrow, and the four phases that are connected to that book, also giving us three of the strong character traits that you believe will help leaders to really build an organization that will not just provide value for their customers, but also for their employees so it can be a win-win on both ends. And the insights, the knowledge, the experiences that you’ve shared with us today, the stories, they were just extremely insightful. And I just want to say thank you so much.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• Build For Tomorrow by Jason Feifer

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

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Steve Cockram is an inspirational communicator, serial entrepreneur, confidant to elite leaders around the world and co-creator of the world's premier “Leadership Toolkit”.

He has co-authored The 100X Leader, 5 Voices and The 5 Gears with his business partner, Jeremie Kubicek. Their new book, The Communication Code, released in November of 2023.  

Questions

·      So, we always like to give our guests an opportunity to share in their own words, a little bit about their journey, how you got from where you were to where you are today?

·      Your book, The Communication Code, you wrote it with your business partner, Jeremie Kubicek, could you share with us a little bit about that book, maybe three overarching themes or tenets that the book focuses on? And kind of who is the book geared towards?

·      Now, you mentioned the five C's in terms of communication code, if I wanted to know or one of our listeners wanted to know what's my primary communication code? How do I know? Is there like a test that you can do? 

·      What do you think is critical in customer experience? If we were to look at the different code, channels that you spoke to us about the five C's, do you think they're all critical? Or do you think there may be one or two that definitely must occur in that interaction?

·  When you're explaining to me the five C's just now and you said in terms of communicating, you have to be really good at asking questions. How can you improve on the ability or the competence of asking the right types of questions? Because that's critical to the whole communication process, if you're not asking the right questions, then you're not going to get the right responses to get to the solution.

·    Now, Steve, could you share with us what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely cannot live without in your own business?

·     Now, could you share with our listeners as well, Steve, what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

·      Where can listeners find you online?

·     Now, before we wrap our episodes up, Steve, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you got derailed or you got off track, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Steve’s Journey

Me: So, we always like to give our guests an opportunity to share in their own words, a little bit about their journey, how you got from where you were to where you are today?

Steve shared what an interesting question that is, nobody ever in their right mind have done all the things he’s done in the last 30 years. So, he'll give the highlights. He was a school teacher, an entrepreneur, a nightclub owner, a pastor, a coach, consultant, and been running Giant really with Jeremie for the last 11 years. So, he always say if you were to meet his friends at the age of 30, and ask who would be the least likely guru on relational intelligence? Probably, he would be in everyone's top three. 

So, everything they've learned usually has come out of their own personal failure and trying to work out why human beings behave the way they do. And also, how can they help people do relationships better in every area of their life? That's really been the heart and the joy of the last few years.

About Steve’s Book – The Communication Code

Me: So, your new book that was mentioned in reading your bio, The Communication Code, you wrote it with your business partner, Jeremie Kubicek, could you share with us a little bit about that book, maybe three overarching themes or tenets that the book focuses on? And kind of who is the book geared towards?

Steve shared that they kind of say the book is for anyone who is involved in any form of human interaction relationship, i.e., everyone. They write for leaders really, but he honestly believe all the resources they created, this is probably the one that leaders apply most in their home relationships as much as they do anywhere else. 

So, the premise gives you a couple of things. One is that transmission of information is not the same as effective communication. So, just because you've sent information to someone does not mean that they've understood the intent with which you've sent it or your expectations as to how you would wish them to respond. So, they use the analogy of saying, if you think of a communication code for those sort of like the enigma machine or a codebreaker, if I could send to you a communication code in advance of the transmission of information, which shared with you how I would like you to respond, we are more likely to meet each other in the middle and communicate effectively. 

So, the basic premise is there are five communication codes, each come with clues. If he said to Yanique, “I'm going to send this to you, I want you to critique it, I want you to tell me why it's not going to work, you won't hurt my feelings. It goes live in two hours. If there's mistakes, I want to know, full critique invited.”  

Second one is Collaboration, where basically he says, “Yanique, I've been working on something, I think it's pretty good, but I think you can bring things that will make it better.” So, full collaboration, please help make this better, whatever that is. 

Clarify, if he says to you, “Yanique, you know I've got something really important to share, I don't think it's going to come out perfectly first time. Would you ask great questions, don't try and critique or collaborate too soon. Help me get out what I'm really trying to say.”  

Because clarification is usually the ability to ask questions before you launch into something else.  

Care is the fourth communication code, which says, this is what I got wrong many, many times where just because someone is transmitting information to him, doesn't mean they want him to fix them, solve them or be their consultant. Care means, “Steve, I am struggling right now, what I'm going to say to you probably bears no resemblance to what the real issues are. I just need to know that somebody cares enough about me to be present, to listen, not trying to solve me, not trying to fix me.” 

Then the last one was celebrate, which is, he might say, “Yanique, hey, before we go on, this is really important to me, I'd love us to take a moment to celebrate something really special, not move on too quickly and go.” 

So, the idea being is you'd be amazed if you add five communication codes that you send in advance of the transmission of your information, you will find that basically, relationships that you struggle with at work, with the people you lead, even the people you have at home, you will be amazed what happens when you actually give them clues as to how you want to respond. 

So, there you go, that's the quickest overview he’s ever given of the communication code book, so apologies if that was longer than you were hoping, but he hopes it at least wet your appetite.

Me: It did. So, just run back through the five C's for me. You said Critique, Collaboration, and what was the third one?

Steve shared, Clarify, Care and Celebrate.  

So, what happens is that all of us have default communication codes that are wired into our personality. So, when he doesn't think about it, he automatically tries and collaborate but it's experiences critique. His wife, for her care is number one, and clarify is number two. So, when people present to him things that they're struggling with, unless he’s intentional, he will usually try and solve their problems.  

And it's amazing how often that goes wrong because he’s not actually able to meet the expectations, unspoken by the way of the person on the other side of him and just for every leader, every day when you're managing people in different contexts will almost always end up with miscommunication, this is just simple. Children can learn it and understand it, they use it at home the whole time. And it's been transformative, so that's why they share it.

Understanding Your Primary Communication Code

Me: Now, you mentioned the five C's in terms of communication code, if someone wanted to know what was their primary code, right, because you said your primary one is collaboration, but it's received as critique. And your wife’s care and clarify. So, if I wanted to know or one of our listeners wanted to know what's my primary communication code? How do I know? Is there like a test that you can do?

Steve shared that there is, if you go to www.giantworldwide.com, there's a free assessment there. Or it might be actually www.giantos.com. 

So, there's a free assessment. But it's really interesting when actually you begin to think about the transmissions of the miscommunication. So, a lot of people either think by sending an email they've communicated effectively, and the reality is, the moment you grasp as a leader that transmission is not the same as effective communication, you also begin to think, how could I use this, now he'll even use it with people who haven't learned the communication code. He'll say to them, “Hey, before I respond to you this moment, you've asked me for this. Can I just be clear, what do you hope happens here? Are you asking me just to listen and be a good friend or a good boss? Are you asking me to celebrate with you? Do you want to ask good questions, you asked me to help make it better? Or do you want me to tell you why I think it will or won't work?” 

So, if you think about it, you can become intentional immediately and amazingly when people believe that you are more relationally intelligent as a leader, you'll be amazed at how much your influence grows with the teams and the people you lead every day. It's amazing what people do when they feel that they're being listened to, heard and that you're committed to trying to really hear what they're trying to say, rather than what he guesses he used to do, which was just respond with whatever he thought was most appropriate in the moment, or whatever pressure he was dealing with.

The Importance of the Five C’s in Customer Experience

Me: Now, a big part of communication, Steve, and I'm kind of bringing this back to customer experience, right? Typically, a customer will reach out to an organization for primarily two reasons, to make a request, it could be for an existing service that they have with your company or product, or it could be for a new service that they’re seeking to attain. Or they're calling because they have a problem and they would like it resolved. So, primarily those are like the two channels that customers will reach out to you for. What do you think is critical in customer experience? If we were to look at the different code, channels that you spoke to us about the five C's, do you think they're all critical? Or do you think there may be one or two that definitely must occur in that interaction?

Steve shared that it's a really good question. His instinct in EQ is to say that clarify is probably the place to start. Because in a sense, the clarification is what are they really wanting to happen? What are they really hoping happens? And he guess asking the right questions in the beginning, for those of us who are problem solvers, we tend to launch into problem solving quickly. 

And he would say that really understanding, well, is somebody just wanting a rant, does somebody just want to have their pound of flesh and get that off there and he just needs to sit there and care and not try and solve it. Or do they have a specific problem that they really hope he can help them with? 

He thinks it's unlikely that celebrate is going to be the agenda, but it would be nice if they were ringing up to say how amazing they think your product is. But he would say probably the clarify is where you start and making a judgement of whether what this person really wants is just you to listen, or whether they're actually more likely inviting you beyond the initial clarification into a collaborative process, how do I help bring a resolution to the reason that you are contacting customer service? 

Now, he thinks the other one, he doesn't know what it's like in your part of the world, but you'd be amazed how many people will spend an awful long time waiting to get through to a customer service line. So, he thinks sometimes the disarming connection, the saying, “I'm so sorry. I'm aware you've had to wait a long time, I would love to be able to do everything I can to help you resolve whatever the issues are.” He always think that goes a long way with him when someone at least recognizes that he’s probably been on the call longer than he was hoping he would be.

Improve on the Competence of Asking the Right Questions

Me: Agreed. So, I'm happy you said clarify, because the question I really wanted to ask you, but I kind of wanted to hear what you would have said based on the customer experience approach is. When you're explaining to me the five C's just now and you said in terms of communicating, you have to be really good at asking questions. And it has been my experience as a customer service trainer and even as a podcaster, I must say I've gotten much better at doing it over the years, but I find a lot of people who are in customer service practitioner roles struggle with this, like how can you improve on the ability or the competence of asking the right types of questions? Because that's critical to the whole communication process, if you're not asking the right questions, then you're not going to get the right responses to get to the solution.

Steve shared that he thinks you actually master your content and the products of which you are going to be answering people's questions. There's a competency filter which means, “Do you know how to help somebody in that process?” 

And he thinks it's different again, whether you're doing it online, or telephone or whether you're maybe in a physical place, like if he goes to the Apple store, the geeks helped him, there's different things he would say depending on whether it's face to face or whether more likely it's even just over a phone because he thinks you have to remember is that communication, only 10% of communication is the words that are used, 35% is the tone with which the words are offered. And then 55% is the nonverbal communication body language. 

So, you're delivering customer service and all you have his tone of voice and words, you're already having to work hard to really understand what is it this person is seeking to communicate. 

So, for him, he thinks that communication part is potentially really helpful, because it's almost taking the time to clarify and ask the question to really make sure you understand what the intent and the expectation. 

So, there's the two things that he’s always trying to understand when someone's speaking to him, what is their intent really? And what is their expectation of this engagement? Even if he knows they probably won't tell him, or they may be unaware of even knowing what it is in the first place is the reason communication is so difficult to train. 

But it's also how people have tools, it becomes really significant when people are able to begin to decode what is the intent, what is the expectation, in his world, obviously, you alluded to something called five voices, he spent about the last 20-25 years trying to work out why humans behave the way they do and understanding that different personalities react very predictably to different interactions. Now, that's probably a high level of sales skills and customer service is a degree of sales if you think about it.

But actually, there's another piece that if people want to add skills, begin to listen to the words that people use, whether that's in the way that neuro linguistic programme would, programming would start to think about, do they talk about what they see, what they hear? Or are they more kinesthetic and in our language of voices, he’s listening for what type of personality is presenting themselves to him in the way that they engage, in the way they communicate. 

So, he would argue that in any human interaction, the person communicating, transmitting to you is giving you lots of clues. 

The question is, to your point, how much time do we really spend listening and trying to understand, discern who this person is, what their intent, what are the expectations before we launch into probably what they were expecting, which is a more collaborative approach to how do we help resolve their issue, bearing in mind that the presenting issue may not be the real issue.

There's so much in there, here's the thing he'll encourage to anyone who's really interested in developing their skills in this area, he’s your kind of Beacon of Hope, because he’s like 24 years on now into this as one of the least relation intelligent people by nature, sadly, by personality. And actually, now many would say, I think really hard about it because I’ve really had to learn, the things that don't come naturally to you, you often end up being a better teacher and coach, because you've actually had to wrestle and struggle with your own inability at my time to listen. 

They have a tool in their toolbox called the boomerang effect, learn to be interested before trying to be interesting. It's like relational intelligence 101. And he thinks it's amazing how often people want to talk to you about them and whatever you say, it reminds them of them or where they've been, that's another area that he’s not sure where the customer experience particularly, but as a communication tip, it's amazing what happens when you meet people are interested in you, more than trying telling you how interesting they are.

Me: Yeah. Well, it's funny, you said that, because one of my very favorite books, and I try to read it at least once per year is How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie. And he talks about that in his book and I mean that book was published from 1933. So, it's amazing that that fundamentally is still the case today, because we are true and true human beings and as you mentioned before, some traits are just predictable.

Steve agreed that they are, and he think that's the bit which human behaviour is more predictable than any of us would ever give it credit for. And he thinks that's the bit where, he doesn't know whether you've watched the film called The Matrix. The moment you begin to understand why human beings behave the way they do, it's a little bit like the green letters and numbers coming down the screen, and you begin to watch a human interaction in different dynamics, in different ways, and you suddenly began to realize, actually is it's more predictable, and therefore if it's predictable, it can be learned. 

And that actually, without it being manipulative, we can actually really work on being far more relationally intelligent and that will help us in every aspect of our leadership, whether we're working with our teams, or whether we're working at home, or whether we're ourselves engaging with clients and customers. But fundamentally, he would argue now that relational intelligence is now become even more important than classic IQ. AI does so much now. I don't know how much you play with it, but in our world is ridiculous how intelligent AI is becoming. But the one thing it doesn't do well, it doesn't do the relational intelligence piece as well as human beings do. 

And he’s not convinced that it will ever replace it. All he knows is it's becoming, he often says that basically, the ability to establish, maintain and develop long term relationships inside and outside your organization is the primary currency of wealth and influence in the new world.

App, Website or Tool that Steve Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about online resource that he cannot live without in his business, Steve shared that the differences in the geeks who run his business are, he tries to think what for him, he thinks 1Password as a middle aged man is the app that he loves the most he looked in before, and he has 376 logins and very secure pieces of data in one app, which basically means I doesn't have to try and have 357 passwords identical. So, 1Password is the best. He doesn't know what it is USD $3.99 a month. But actually, that makes him feel more secure and safe online, that's him personally. 

The business, he thinks if you were to speak to their team at the moment, they're building an app, they use a software called Framer, but it's a way in which you can see what technology in the app will be and do and look like before you actually have to actually engage in building the coding. So, he’s a massive fan of Framer, even though he’s not the person who actually runs it. There's some far younger, clever UI, UX developers who do all that work. But fundamentally, he’s always massively impressive with what Framer does.

What Steve is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that he’s excited about, Steve stated that that’s a great question. Well, he thinks he probably alluded to it in the sense that they have worked for years to try and codify tools to help leaders do a better job in the visual world we live in. What they're working on at the moment and this is the thing which he smiles as he says it. They've run a B2B business up until this point, they've licensed kind of coaches and consultants to use their stuff. 

But they're building a B2C app at the moment, which will take all of the Jedi mind tricks of the last 20 years about why people behave the way they do. They'll take the best of their tools, the best of what AI is able to do, and they will create a five voices out which will come your way later this year, which basically is your personalized coach in relation to, it will know your personality and your wiring. And it will basically customize content and learning for you and allow you to access it in the way that you most love to learn. 

So, if you want podcasts, ebooks, audiobooks, but the idea really of actually rather than having to read one book, and we all read the same thing. He’s watching the ability to customize content in form and style that is unique to you as an individual. And he’s never seen that before. 

So, he thinks communication code will be the last book they write in the late industrial format of a published book. He thinks they will customize content for individuals in formats and voices even and length of time, you'll be able to have your daily version of encouragement that will come straight to you when it comes, so that's what the team is working on at the moment. He gets to see all the progress week by week and minimum viable products is going to be ready for mid-May. So, watch this space for personality driven grows customized to you.

Where Can We Find Steve Online

LinkedIn – Steve Cockram

Email – steve@giantworldwide.com

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Steve Uses

When asked about quote that he tends to revert to, Steve shared that he’s got plenty of those. But probably the most common one is the Theodore Roosevelt quote when he talks about, “If he's going to fail, he would rather fail while daring greatly than be counted among those cold, timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.” So, that's what he goes back to and just go, “If I'm going to fail, I'm going to fail while daring greatly, going after something big enough, that actually could make a dent and for good in the world.”

Me: Fantastic. So, we will have definitely have that quote in the show notes of this episode. So, just want to extend our deepest gratitude to you, Steve, for taking time out of your very busy schedule and coming on our podcast and sharing about your book, The Communication Code, the five C's that you mentioned, how it works, the inner workings of why it's important to listen, asking the right questions, understanding that relational communication is definitely the epitome of where we're moving forward to in this world. And just how as human beings, we can utilize a lot of the cues and clues that are given to us to improve on how it is that we transmit the communication with each other. So, it was really insightful, and I just want to say thank you so much.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

•     The 100X Leader: How to Become Someone Worth Following by Steve Cockram and Jeremie Kubicek

•     The 5 Voices: How to Communicate Effectively without Everyone You Lead by Steve Cockram and Jeremie Kubicek

•     The 5 Gears: How to Be Present and Productive When There is Never Enough Time by Steve Cockram and Jeremie Kubicek

•     How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie

•     The Communication Code by Steve Cockram and Jeremie Kubicek

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

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This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others.

Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience! 

Darby Vannier, with over 20 years of experience, is a seasoned leader adept at building and growing organizations. As President & CEO of Indispensable Leadership Group, he excels as an executive coach, consultant, speaker, and fractional COO, focusing on strategic and leadership development. He has led effective teams of more than a 100 employees, coached others into their own leadership positions, and created stability during challenging organizational transitions. Darby built his career on the philosophy that developing the right people is the key to success. 

Learn more at www.beindispensable.com.

Questions

·      Even though we read a very short snippet of your journey, your little bio, we always like to give our guests an opportunity to share in their own words, a little bit about how you got from where you are to where you are today.

·      Your book titled, The Indispensable Leader. So, could you share with our listeners a little bit about that book? What was your intention when you wrote the book? What is the book about? Who is the book geared towards and kind of what was your sentiment when you were putting it all together?

·      Which role do you think is more effective, the manager’s role or the leader’s role?

·     Now in the book, you also talk about, which I found this part really fascinating that you should be curious, and you should engage curiosity. Explained to us a little bit about what you meant when you said, engage or encourage curiosity and being curious as a leader.

·      In the book, you also mentioned the whole conscious competence model. So, I'd love for you to kind of just explain that to the audience as well, the four phases and then the example that you gave to reinforce the concept.

·      Could you also share with our listeners, what is the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely cannot live without in your business?

·    Can you also share with our listeners, maybe one or two books that you've read, it could be a book that you read recently, or even one that you read a very long time ago, but it had a great impact on you.

·      Can you also share with us what's the one thing in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

·      Now, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off track, and the quote kind of helps to get you back on track.

·      Where can listeners find you online?

Highlights

Darby’s Journey

Me: Now Darby, even though we read a very short snippet of your journey, your little bio, we always like to give our guests an opportunity to share in their own words, a little bit about how you got from where you were to where you are today.

Darby shared that it’s kind of a diverse career actually. So, he started off in retail, actually kind of in the entertainment industry, working as a manager at a 22-screen movie theatre, which is an interesting industry, especially back at that time when it was before digital movies and everything, and everything came in on natural celluloid film and everything. 

So, yeah, 22 screen movie theatre, they would serve 1000’s of people a day and that was an interesting experience getting started because it definitely was jumping right into that retail type environment, bringing in at that point, you're talking about most of their employees were high school or college aged students and, and so that's just a different level of team member that you're managing. 

From there, he kind of jumped even further into retail, he actually became a store manager for Kinkos at the time, so the print shop at Kinkos, which is now FedEx Office, but at the time, it was still Kinkos. And at that time, all the Kinkos were 24-hour stores, like they never closed, didn't close on any holidays, didn't close any hours, nothing. So, that was definitely a learning experience he will say, managing a 24 hour a day business from that standpoint. 

And he did that about 6 years and then moved into the non-profit world where he took over as CEO of an International Livestock Association, actually for alpacas of all things. And it's always an interesting story because he tells people when he got the interview for the job, he had to look up what an alpaca was because he had a general idea that it was like a llama, but he didn't exactly know what it was, so kind of entered into a whole new realm there. And he did that for about 11 years where he reported directly to a board, grew that organization, fixed a lot of things in that organization, and then grew that organization. And then they actually went through a merger process and merged with another national organization. And he took over as CEO of the newly created merged organization for that industry. 

And then from there, he decided, he’s kind of ready to be done with this non-profit thing, and he exited non-profit, went back into the for-profit world, joined a company that does leadership development, strategic planning, executive coaching, that sort of thing, because he’s always been passionate about leadership, and did that for about 7 years. 

And then last year decided he’s going to break off and do his own things. He had a company established previously for some consulting and stuff that he had done and he just expanded that and started offering fractional leadership services and executive coaching on his own and have built that up from there. So, still working on that and that's kind of gets us up to date.

About Darby’s Book – The Indispensable Leader

Me: Now, as part of this journey, you are also an author and your book is titled, The Indispensable Leader. So, could you share with our listeners a little bit about that book, I do have some questions I want to ask specifically, but I kind of just want to hear in your own words, like what was your intention when you wrote the book? What is the book about? Who is the book geared towards and kind of what was your sentiment when you were putting it all together?

Darby shared that the book is really geared towards anybody, he wouldn't even say young leaders, he would say anybody who's really either starting out in leadership, leading other people or even if they have been leading people and they just want to have some experience and some knowledge to refine maybe their leadership style. 

And it's kind of one of those things, he’s kind of kept stories over the years throughout his career, because he’s sure you have experienced throughout your career, you encounter interesting things, he'll just put it that way, some challenging things and some difficult things, and then some really exciting things. 

So, he had lots of things that he has accumulated throughout his career that he felt like these were good learning experiences for him at the time, and had he had this information when he was starting out being a leader, it would have been highly beneficial. 

So, in the midst of COVID, back in 2020, when everything kind of shut down, and we all had more time, because we were staying home and everything, he decided that seems like a good time to start writing a book. So, that's when he started on the book. 

And the book really kind of goes down the path of taking this idea, he started off the book by basically saying, you hear people say this question….”Are you a manager? Or Are you a leader?” 

And he really attacks that and he say, we're really looking at that wrong, because he thinks that's the wrong question. It assumes that people who would probably consider themselves managers of things, cannot be good leaders and that's not the case. He knew a fair number of people who definitely consider themselves managers, who are really spectacular leaders as well. 

So, he kind of asked people to look at it a little bit differently and what he thinks people mean is actually more of are you more manager oriented? Or are you more visionary and entrepreneurial oriented?  

And if you think about that as a spectrum, everybody exists somewhere on that spectrum. And you don't want to be at the far end of either end of that because you don't want to be too high visionary, that you just come up with a lot of ideas and nothing gets done. But you don't want to be too far managerial where you only care about checking off your list, and you don't really care why you're doing it. 

So, what he basically asked people to do is think about this more like a Venn diagram, where you have two intersecting circles and let's take the best traits of both manager and visionary archetypes, and create the best possible leader that you can be because there's only a certain amount of things that you have access to yourself, there's only a certain amount of things that you can gain yourself. 

So, let's find those best things and then let's try to release the bad things so the bad traits of those archetypes so that we don't fall into those ruts as well. And he kind of goes down that journey and he uses a lot of stories from his career to illustrate various points on leadership and talking about mentorship and some of those things as well so that people can gain that knowledge that he didn't necessarily have at the time as he was going through it.

The Effectiveness of the Manager’s Role and the Leader’s Role

Me: So, I like the fact that you spoke about, are you a leader or a manager, but even outside of that you talk about in the book, just visionary leaders and I'm not sure what was the other term that you had outside of visionary? Managers.

So, can you just differentiate, I know you said, we look on it from a different perspective. But if we were to put it in terms of hierarchy, or better yet, in terms of in an organization, if you really want to motivate people, get them to do what you want them to do without having to literally stand up over them with a stick over their head saying, “If you don't do this, this is the sanction that's going to be enforced.” Which role do you think is more effective, the manager’s role or the leader’s role?

Darby shared that he would actually say both are important and it's good to have a mix of both types of individuals within an organization. 

Here's the reason why. So, people with managerial characteristics who fall more on that side of the spectrum are people who are very process oriented, they're usually very organized, they're the ones who are able to look at something and say, here's how it's going to get done. They can outline the 50 steps it's going to take to get there. They're about creating a list and checking off the things and getting stuff done. They're the ones that are talking about, what are we going to do? And how are we going to do it? 

And sometimes they don't always care about the why they should and that's what he means by making sure that they try to pull in the best traits of both worlds. But those are the folks who are going to get stuff done for you. And they are the folks who can execute on a vision. So, basically, they can take a vision of a founder or a visionary and they can translate that vision into the action steps that it's going to take to accomplish it. 

So, on the visionary side, you have to have visionaries as well, because the high visionary people, those are the folks who are generating lots of ideas, they're coming up with five or ten new ideas every day, they're usually very passionate about their ideas. 

Oftentimes entrepreneurs are visionaries, because that is the type of individuals who are drawn to starting a business and taking that risk and everything. Because in their minds, when they think of an idea, when they envision something, it's done like we're there, and it is done. They're the ones that are more going to be talking about why are we doing something, like they want to be able to explain and show their passion for why is it that we want to accomplish whatever it is that they've come up with. 

The difficulty you can run into with a visionary though is, is that they tend to move on very quickly, because if you get a very high visionary person, they only love generating new ideas, they don't want to talk about how to get there, they just want it done. 

So, that visionary needs to have people who are more managerial in nature so that they can actually get stuff done. And in most companies, you almost have to have two top individuals who are one is one and one is the other. 

That's why you often see a CEO whose high visionary and you see a COO who is the person who executes and those two individuals have to have a high amount of trust, because they will piss each other off and that's the bottom line. 

Because what will happen is, is that COO who's more process oriented, who's the one going, “Okay, there's these 50 problems we have to solve before we can get there” they are going to be like saying slow down and pump the brakes, we got to back up here. 

And the high visionary CEO is the one saying, “No, we got to move forward. And I want to do all these things, and everything.” 

So, in order for their company to be highly successful, you almost have to have that mix. You see this with celebrity leaders he'll call him. So, people like Steve Jobs, for example, it's well known that he was very high visionary, brilliant guy, came up with amazing things, had very high expectations, very passionate about his industry. 

But he learned very early on, he basically lost his company initially, before he came back many years later, he learned very early on that he needed to have people that could execute those ideas, because he just wanted to spend time on generating ideas, he needed an execution team as well. 

So, eventually, he figured out he had to have individuals who worked with him that he trusted, that could execute those ideas that could challenge him and slow him down, he would on the opposite side of that push them forward. So, it's this weird balancing act. So, every company needs to have a good mix of both in order to be successful.

The Art of Being Curious as a Leader

Me: Now in the book, you also talk about, which I found this part really fascinating that you should be curious, and you should engage curiosity. And curiosity sometimes I think can be misinterpreted, sometimes, for example, people will think that curiosity I find is being inquisitive, it's a similar adjective but inquisitive for some reason connotates, almost you being concerned or asking questions about things that should not concern you. But I do believe that that's how we learn right? About asking questions, exploring, experiencing. Explaine to us a little bit about what you meant when you said, engage or encourage curiosity and being curious as a leader.

Darby shared that it certainly can mean inquisitive and that is something that it can mean. But when he talks about being curious and when he coaches leaders and encourage them to be curious, what he’s really trying to do is encourage folks to be lifelong learners, like he wants you to be curious about new things, go read books, go meet new people, go join a group that you wouldn't necessarily join because by gaining those additional experiences, and that additional knowledge, you're only going to grow as a leader. So, he’s very big on making sure that folks that he coaches and himself, do not get stagnant. 

And what that means is you have to be engaged, you have to be engaged in what you do. You have to be engaged in your industry, you have to be engaged in life. So, sometimes it's professional development, and you're joining an association or you're reading a book or whatever. 

Sometimes it might be personal development where you're learning a new language or travelling to a country that you've never been to so that you can gain that experience because all of those things are important. They are going to make you a much, much better well-rounded leader, especially as he speaks to college students every now and then. 

And as he speaks to college students, that's one thing that he talked to them about is gain a broad set of experiences because a lot of us really end up, in the United States, a lot of folks who go to college end up going to college nearby home, so, they're exposed to, yes, a new set of people, but it may be very similar to what they're used to. So, he encourages people to get out of your comfort zone and go do some other things because the more experiences you have, the better leader you're going to be. 

Certainly, looking back at his career, he’s sure as you look at your career, every single thing that he dealt with and went through, all of that past history really made him into the leader that he is today. And everything that he’s doing today will make him into the leader that he is in five years, that's the bottom line. 

So, you got to have that curiosity, if you don't, you're going to end up stagnant, you're not going to really grow as a leader, you're probably not getting promoted up very much. In most industries, you really do need to be curious so that you can continue to expand as well.

Me: Yes, I totally agree that you should definitely be open to learning and from everything that you do, it definitely adds to who you are today, as you said, what you're doing now is building for where you're going be five years from now.

Conscious Competence Model and the Four Phases

Me: In the book, you also mentioned Darby, and I was exposed to this many years ago when I had done a leadership course myself, the whole Conscious Competence Model. And I liked the example that you gave with the baby. So, I'd love for you to kind of just explain that to the audience as well, the four phases and then the example that you gave to reinforce the concept.

Darby shared that this is something that really helps in coaching as well, because it's something that everybody goes through, but they don't really pinpoint that they're actually going through it. 

So, the idea here is there's four phases of competence. And you really start off no matter what it is, in some new experience, in some new activity, you start a new job, you learn how to drive, whatever it is, you start off this idea as being unconsciously incompetent, which means you're incompetent at whatever you're doing, and you don't even know you're incompetent at it. And that's a big problem because then you're doing things and you don't even know you're doing them wrong. 

So, the idea is, hopefully somebody will point out to you or you'll eventually move into the idea of conscious incompetence. And that's really where you're still incompetent at it, but you recognize that you're incompetent at it. So, you know, you're doing it wrong, it's kind of a situation, you know that you don't know something. 

And then after that, the idea is that you move into conscious competence, which means that you're competent at it, but you have to think about it all the time, it's not become a habit, like you have to actually think about whatever the activity is. So, if you think about when you're learning to drive, this is a good thing. Or this is a thing we encounter, you have to constantly think about turning your turn signal on or stopping at the stop sign or stopping at the light or seeing the light turn yellow, or whatever that is, you are at that point consciously competent. So, you can do it, but you got to think about it all the time. 

The last phase is really where you want to get to, especially with regard to leading people, you want to get to unconscious competence, where it is that you are competent at something and you don't have to constantly think about it, it just happens. So, this basically is the idea of it becomes habit. 

There's actually an author named Charles Duhigg, he wrote a book called The Power of Habit: Why We Do What We Do in Life and Business, it's a spectacular book, but he talks about habit loops where your brain is set up so that it creates these habit loops out of things that you do regularly. And that's how you end up, if you've ever driven a car, and then you're driving along, and sometimes you're like, I don't remember the last five minutes, and it kind of freaks you out. That happens because of that, because your brain can handle that sort of thing. And basically, has created a habit loop. 

It's the same reason when he left his position last year, and he was no longer going to the office on a regular basis, your habit loop changes. So, normally my habit loop for driving to the office was the same every day, he would do the exact same thing, the exact same route, whatever it was, well, on two different occasions, at the end of the year, last year, he was driving in the direction of where his old office was. And he looked up and pretty soon, like he’s driving towards the office, he’s going the whole wrong direction for where he was headed. But his brain engaged this habit loop that his brain thought, “Oh, you're doing the habit loop, we haven't done in a while to go to the office.” And then he ended up on the entirely wrong road and everything because he was going to the office. But that's the idea of unconscious competence that you want to get to is be able to create those habits so that things just happen for you on a regular basis.

Me: So, just want to remind our listeners, Darby's book is out, available on all platforms that you would want to purchase a book from, I would definitely recommend that you go and consume some of the great content he has in it. I haven't fully finished reading it, but the parts that I have been able to garner were really, really insightful. And he was able to share a bit of it with our listeners in the conversation today. So, definitely a must have read for 2024. Thank you so much for sharing Darby.

App, Website or Tool that Darby Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about online resource that he cannot live without in his business, Darby shared that from his perspective, it's LinkedIn just because of the industry that he’s in. It is definitely the one online resource he could not live without. There's a lot of things out there, of course, especially with social media, and everything nowadays, it really depends on the industry individuals are in but for him, LinkedIn is it and definitely those who are listening, you can find him on LinkedIn, he will connect with you just search for Darby Vannier, and he’s happy to connect with you on LinkedIn as well.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Darby

When asked about books that has had a great impact, Darby shared that there is lot of books that certainly he has utilized over the years. But there is one book that he has bought and given away more copies of this book than any other book. 

And it's a book called Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can’t Stop Talking, it's by a woman, her name is Susan Cain. And it's about kind of leading as an introvert. And the reason that he liked it is that he knows it doesn't always seem like it to individuals when he does these podcasts that he loves to speak to people and stuff like that. But he’s a pretty big introvert. And it was the first book that he read that he was like somebody actually gets him. 

So, she kind of talks about what it's like to be an introvert and how it's kind of a spectrum. And there are certainly individuals who are introverts who have no desire to speak to people, for example. Whereas, he loves that, if he gets a group of 1500 people to speak in front of great, he’s happy. Now, he doesn't want to step down off the stage and talk to you one on one really, afterwards, he'll do it. And you won't necessarily know that he’s uncomfortable. But that's not his comfort zone. 

So, every introvert’s a little bit different and it's more about how your energy is recharged. So, his energy is recharged by quiet time and being alone. He has no problem going on a vacation for a few days and being by himself the entire time and not talking to anybody, that would freak out an extrovert. But the reason he loves the book is and that he’s given it to both introverts and extroverts. And the reason it's important for extroverts to read as well is you work with a lot of introverted individuals and this world we live in is catered to extroverts. And it can be incredibly difficult for those of us who are introverts to live in. And we are forced to adjust to you all. 

So, he encourages extroverts to read this book as well, because you really learn a lot, especially as you lead and manage people, it will help you better manage individuals, it will also help you understand how to take advantage of utilizing the skills and the experience of introverts that maybe an extrovert doesn't necessarily have. So, from a professional standpoint, he always recommends, he also recommend it for individuals who are married, who have spouses who maybe are the opposite of them, because it will help you to totally understand your spouse a lot more as well.

What Darby is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that he’s excited about, Darby shared that he’s still under a year on totally breaking out on his own and building his own company. So, building his business is what he’s really passionate about right now. He’s working on a new speaking topic regarding the impact that leaders make in the world and even over interactions that they might have considered insignificant. So, it's kind of like the ripple effect, so he’s working on this talk and he’s excited about that as well to be able to talk to folks about that. 

And then just really working to help each one of his fractional leadership clients be as successful as possible. It is so amazing to be able to work with multiple clients and see individual companies continue to grow and scale and to have a part in that as well.

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Darby Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Darby shared that he doesn't really have a quote, but he kind of have more of a philosophy and his philosophy with this. And he uses this again when he coaches other leaders too is, “Everything is temporary. And the one thing you have to remember is, is that everybody around you is going through their own stuff.” So, he always encourages people to be kind when you're dealing with other individuals, because you don't know what's going on in their lives, no matter how well you think you know them, you don't know everything that's going on. So, as he encounters adversity, he tends to kind of revert back to, “Okay, let's control what I can control. And then I need to let the other stuff go.” 

He certainly has had multiple times in his career where he’s had some very difficult situations that he’s dealt with professionally. And that's what he’s come back to is okay, can you control this particular thing that's happening? No. But you can control these other two aspects of it and you can make sure that you do those things really well. 

And what he has found is if he does that, and he just remember that this is just one more piece of experience in his life and in his career, part of that past history that he said that makes us all who we are, if he can remember that, then it's usually easy to get through those things. Not that it's not a challenge, still can be a challenge, still can be stressful, but it does definitely help you as you move through those challenging times.

Me: All right. So, we will definitely have that summary of what you shared with us in terms of that, quote, or that thought, that helps to get you from one stage to the next if for any reason you feel derailed.

Where Can We Find Darby Online

Website – www.beindispensable.com

Facebook - Indispensable Leadership Group

LinkedIn – Indispensable Leadership Group

LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/darbyvannier/

Me: Now Darby, thank you so much for hopping on our podcast today and sharing all these great insights from your book, as well as all of the experience and exposures that you've had over the years that have crafted the person that you are today and the invaluable knowledge and experience and coaching that you've been able to offer to your clients. And so, the information that you shared with us was extremely valuable. The examples that you gave, the characteristics and the comparison as it relates to having a bit of both is critical to the organization success as a manager and a leader was really, really, really insightful and I just want to extend a great amount of gratitude to you for taking time to share with us today.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

•     The Indispensable Leader: How to Use Your Inner Manager and Visionary to Achieve Leadership Success by Darby Vannier

•     The Power of Habit: Why We Do What We Do in Life and Business by Charles Duhigg

•     Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can’t Stop Talking Susan Cain

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